YOU SAID: I asked: What would a true Christian, per your definition, do? You answered by choosing options that are not present in my scenario.
True. Because you only presented options to me that would either force me to be a hypocrite, or a coward.
Interceding prayer is neither. It’s the greatest outlet of power on earth. It stops such situations at the root.
Our flesh, coupled with demonic activity is the source of much evil in this world.
YOU SAID: In other words, your actor would freeze; perhaps he would cry, or maybe he’d curl up under a bush until the police shows up to collect the bodies and discovers that this one is alive and well, aside from soiled clothes. This is not what a true Christian would do ... A true Christian would sell his cloak and buy a sword ...
Tell me then, what a true Christian would do in light of this refutation of Luke 22:36-38 as license for a Christian to use force? Remember, Scripture has no contradictions.
http://holyrestoration.weebly.com/faq.html#Q1
YOU SAID: My example is not even contrived, unfortunately. That very scenario played out in Norway and at Sandy Hook just recently. This is a very real scenario.
A true Christian, who is consecrated to the LORD and used of God for intercession would be protected from being in the area. Furthermore he would be 50 miles from it, binding the forces of Satan so it would not happen. In a Christian nation where people put more importance on prayer and holiness, such things would not happen.
They happen now, here in the USA because our churches are entertainment centered, not holiness centered.
YOU SAID: If you have to draw that sword, will that hurt your soul? Yes, it will. But letting innocents be killed will hurt it even more.
Violating Matthew 26:52 will hurt in light of Luke 6:46 ...
MATTHEW 26:52
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
LUKE 6:46
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
YOU SAID: No man is ideal; if you strive to be perfect,
God gave many commands in the Old and New Testaments to be perfect. If he commanded it, it can be done. Please see http://holyrestoration.weebly.com/uploads/4/9/4/2/4942392/15_christian_perfection.pdf for some verses.
YOU SAID: lock yourself up in a monastery, or become a hermit. You will score fewer black marks there; but at the same time you will score fewer white marks as well - life in a remote cave doesn’t give you too many opportunities to help others. As an instrument of God, you would be kept sharp and well polished ... and never put to use. Why would God want to have such an instrument?
Who said you have to go through all that? Job was hardly a hermit, but God called him perfect.
JOB 1:8
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and eschews evil?”
What use is such a man today? Miracle healings like Jesus did. See http://holyrestoration.weebly.com/uploads/4/9/4/2/4942392/16_aaallenthepricefullversion.pdf for the details in Chapters 3 and 4.
YOU SAID: This is not to disparage your suggestion to minister to criminals and to pray for them. This is a good preventive measure. However this measure is insufficient when you are facing a drug-crazed psycho. He is not sentient anymore - drugs have burned all the remnants of his mind out of his head. People on bath salts engage in cannibalism, they eat their victims alive. You cannot reason with them, and you are not Jesus to help them with a handy herd of swine. You must act according to your abilities.
Admittedly, I am not at this level, but I’m working to get there. Someone has to do it. Maybe me, maybe one of my friends, maybe someone on FR, maybe ... YOU.
YOU SAID: That is appreciated. You do not see yourself as a Soldier. You know better than anyone what you can and cannot do, and that is just fine.
God calls me a soldier who performs warfare in prayer.
You therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
II TIMOTHY 2:3-4
II CORINTHIANS 10:4
4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
I TIMOTHY 1:18
18 ¶ This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
YOU SAID: However someone else has to be a soldier, a guard, a teacher, a hunter, a sailor. It would be incorrect to preach to them that their occupations are wrong and they have to change. A soldier cannot give up his arms because when the neighboring King decides to attack your King you will be all dead - it is the soldier’s duty to protect you.
Even John the Baptist never told the soldiers who asked him to quit. He just told them to live clean and holy.
LUKE 3:14
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your wages.
Thank you again for your time, and your patient thoughtful reply. I hope on a scale of 1 to 100, I have budged you at least 1-2 points toward my point of view.
==
Best Regards,
Freeper ROTB
http://holyrestoration.weebly.com
**Please** let me know if I can add you to the “Holy Restoration” ping list.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. - James 1:22
True. I chose those options because they are realistic. When you walk in a dark street and see a woman raped by two armed thugs, you'd better be properly equipped and trained to resist the evil. You will do good if you bring those thugs to a church ahead of time and convince them that their way is not the right one. However if you meet them too late then your avenues are somewhat limited.
To make things even more obvious: what would you do if, in a rural village, you see a mountain lion attacking a child? (One, of very formidable size, was caught a year ago in a town that I visit.) Or, perhaps, you walk in a city and see a rabid pitbull attacking a pregnant woman? (That also happened, saw it in the news somewhere.) You cannot convince an animal - especially a deathly sick animal - to change its ways.
You can also note that there are not too many shades of gray between an animal and a thug. Intelligence and social manners are not binary. A creature can have none of them, or all of them, or anywhere in between. Having human genes is a necessary but not sufficient condition for being a human.
Tell me then, what a true Christian would do in light of this refutation of Luke 22:36-38 as license for a Christian to use force? Remember, Scripture has no contradictions.
[The Scripture sometimes gives different answers to slightly different questions not because it is contradictory but because the situations are not the same. Sometimes we see the difference in the context, in other cases we do not.]
“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword,”
Not a contradiction. Sometimes doing the right thing hurts you or kills you. For example, imagine that an armed intruder breaks into your home. To protect your family you grab your trusty revolver. The burglar shoots you. You shoot the burglar. You both die. Your death is the punishment for taking your sword. You knew the deal. You still went ahead. Why? Because you saved others.
In this light it is perfectly clear why one shall not wantonly brandish the sword. It is not consequence-free. This action is reserved only for the most dire circumstances, when you know the price but still are willing to pay it. The case of George Zimmerman is a very good illustration of this principle.
“Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors
This requires a Christian to be law-abiding. This is not under debate. The problem arises when the laws themselves, or their executors, are wrong. The Bible does not specify how human laws are put in place, and how those governors are assigned. This means it's under the purview of our social order. We are free to elect our kings and our governors, and we are free to make our own laws. We are also free to change them whenever the society finds it necessary. God only specifies the framework within which we are allowed to manage our affairs. For example, it is prohibited to murder public officials just because you don't like their policies. (Hardly anyone proposes that.)
1 Samuel 15:23 says “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”
It is essential to read the entire chapter. It is about Saul rebelling against God:
Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: "I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.
As matter of fact, it was Samuel who lawfully rebelled against Saul, the current king - and his rebellion was not simply legal, it was divinely inspired, and it had full support of God. God needed someone to tell Saul that he erred. Your quote, in fact, supports the position that errant rulers shall be made to answer for their mistakes. How exactly that is to be done? It varies. In Samuel's case, a talk was sufficient:
Saul replied, "I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD your God."
Some sinners may be far more stubborn; and once they are on the wrong path they may be hard to convince. You always do what you must, not more and not less.
With regard to the entire quote, now it becomes very clear why rebellion against God is on par with witchcraft - it simply violates the Ten Commandments.
Who said you have to go through all that? Job was hardly a hermit, but God called him perfect.
Job's shoes are pretty large. When someone among us is born to fill them, then perhaps we can revisit this issue. Saints have their own ways; but I am not one, and most people on this Earth aren't saints either. Even to Job this perfection didn't come easy. Here is a summary from Wikipedia:
The Book of Job begins with an introduction to Job's character—he is described as a blessed man who lives righteously. God's praise of Job prompts Satan to challenge Job's integrity and suggesting that Job serves God simply because he protects him. God removes Job's protection, allowing Satan to take his wealth, his children, and his physical health in order to tempt Job to curse God. Despite his difficult circumstances, he does not curse God, but rather curses the day of his birth. And although he protests his plight and pleads for an explanation, he stops short of accusing God of injustice.
Most people that I know would rather confine themselves to the least comfortable cell in a monastery, or the least comfortable cave in a faraway land, rather than go through this.
I have to go back to work now, no matter that it's almost midnight on the West Coast. I know that nobody is going to do my job for me. (The criterion here is simple: if I can do it then it's up to me to do it.) Thank you for the discussion, and best wishes!
P.S. I do not subscribe to ping lists; instead I just browse the forum occasionally, read, and reply when it is appropriate. I'm actually pretty busy, I have more work to do than I can handle. This work is something that people actually need to do good things with, so I cannot be away from my design environment for long.