True. I chose those options because they are realistic. When you walk in a dark street and see a woman raped by two armed thugs, you'd better be properly equipped and trained to resist the evil. You will do good if you bring those thugs to a church ahead of time and convince them that their way is not the right one. However if you meet them too late then your avenues are somewhat limited.
To make things even more obvious: what would you do if, in a rural village, you see a mountain lion attacking a child? (One, of very formidable size, was caught a year ago in a town that I visit.) Or, perhaps, you walk in a city and see a rabid pitbull attacking a pregnant woman? (That also happened, saw it in the news somewhere.) You cannot convince an animal - especially a deathly sick animal - to change its ways.
You can also note that there are not too many shades of gray between an animal and a thug. Intelligence and social manners are not binary. A creature can have none of them, or all of them, or anywhere in between. Having human genes is a necessary but not sufficient condition for being a human.
Tell me then, what a true Christian would do in light of this refutation of Luke 22:36-38 as license for a Christian to use force? Remember, Scripture has no contradictions.
[The Scripture sometimes gives different answers to slightly different questions not because it is contradictory but because the situations are not the same. Sometimes we see the difference in the context, in other cases we do not.]
“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword,”
Not a contradiction. Sometimes doing the right thing hurts you or kills you. For example, imagine that an armed intruder breaks into your home. To protect your family you grab your trusty revolver. The burglar shoots you. You shoot the burglar. You both die. Your death is the punishment for taking your sword. You knew the deal. You still went ahead. Why? Because you saved others.
In this light it is perfectly clear why one shall not wantonly brandish the sword. It is not consequence-free. This action is reserved only for the most dire circumstances, when you know the price but still are willing to pay it. The case of George Zimmerman is a very good illustration of this principle.
“Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors
This requires a Christian to be law-abiding. This is not under debate. The problem arises when the laws themselves, or their executors, are wrong. The Bible does not specify how human laws are put in place, and how those governors are assigned. This means it's under the purview of our social order. We are free to elect our kings and our governors, and we are free to make our own laws. We are also free to change them whenever the society finds it necessary. God only specifies the framework within which we are allowed to manage our affairs. For example, it is prohibited to murder public officials just because you don't like their policies. (Hardly anyone proposes that.)
1 Samuel 15:23 says “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”
It is essential to read the entire chapter. It is about Saul rebelling against God:
Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: "I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.
As matter of fact, it was Samuel who lawfully rebelled against Saul, the current king - and his rebellion was not simply legal, it was divinely inspired, and it had full support of God. God needed someone to tell Saul that he erred. Your quote, in fact, supports the position that errant rulers shall be made to answer for their mistakes. How exactly that is to be done? It varies. In Samuel's case, a talk was sufficient:
Saul replied, "I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD your God."
Some sinners may be far more stubborn; and once they are on the wrong path they may be hard to convince. You always do what you must, not more and not less.
With regard to the entire quote, now it becomes very clear why rebellion against God is on par with witchcraft - it simply violates the Ten Commandments.
Who said you have to go through all that? Job was hardly a hermit, but God called him perfect.
Job's shoes are pretty large. When someone among us is born to fill them, then perhaps we can revisit this issue. Saints have their own ways; but I am not one, and most people on this Earth aren't saints either. Even to Job this perfection didn't come easy. Here is a summary from Wikipedia:
The Book of Job begins with an introduction to Job's character—he is described as a blessed man who lives righteously. God's praise of Job prompts Satan to challenge Job's integrity and suggesting that Job serves God simply because he protects him. God removes Job's protection, allowing Satan to take his wealth, his children, and his physical health in order to tempt Job to curse God. Despite his difficult circumstances, he does not curse God, but rather curses the day of his birth. And although he protests his plight and pleads for an explanation, he stops short of accusing God of injustice.
Most people that I know would rather confine themselves to the least comfortable cell in a monastery, or the least comfortable cave in a faraway land, rather than go through this.
I have to go back to work now, no matter that it's almost midnight on the West Coast. I know that nobody is going to do my job for me. (The criterion here is simple: if I can do it then it's up to me to do it.) Thank you for the discussion, and best wishes!
P.S. I do not subscribe to ping lists; instead I just browse the forum occasionally, read, and reply when it is appropriate. I'm actually pretty busy, I have more work to do than I can handle. This work is something that people actually need to do good things with, so I cannot be away from my design environment for long.
I apologize if I repeat myself, since there are many I am conversing with on FR.
I SAID: Because you only presented options to me that would either force me to be a hypocrite, or a coward.
IN RESPONSE YOU SAID: True. I chose those options because they are realistic. When you walk in a dark street and see a woman raped by two armed thugs, you’d better be properly equipped and trained to resist the evil. You will do good if you bring those thugs to a church ahead of time and convince them that their way is not the right one. However if you meet them too late then your avenues are somewhat limited.
I don’t convict them of sin. The Holy Spirit does as we pray. Proverbs 21:1 says God turns the hearts of kings, so he can turn the hearts of thugs. John 16:8 says that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin righteousness & judegment. The question is, can a “neighborhood watch” with a 9mm pistol be in all places? Prayer can.
II CHRONICLES 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Our job = humility, prayer, seeking God’s face, turning from evil
God’s job = hearing, forgiving us, HEALING OUR LAND
We cannot heal the USA by carrying guns and killing thugs while continuing to idolize money, porn, hatred of politicians or anyone, idolizing violent movies or team sports, etc. It has not worked, and it will not work.
YOU SAID: To make things even more obvious: what would you do if, in a rural village, you see a mountain lion attacking a child? (One, of very formidable size, was caught a year ago in a town that I visit.) Or, perhaps, you walk in a city and see a rabid pitbull attacking a pregnant woman? (That also happened, saw it in the news somewhere.) You cannot convince an animal - especially a deathly sick animal - to change its ways.
Animals are not people, so killing them with a weapon to defend a human life has no eternal consequences. I like a good burger now and then too.
YOU SAID: You can also note that there are not too many shades of gray between an animal and a thug. Intelligence and social manners are not binary. A creature can have none of them, or all of them, or anywhere in between. Having human genes is a necessary but not sufficient condition for being a human.
True, but thugs are still people, and murdering one against Matthew 26:52 has severe consequences. It’s God that allows us time and presence of mind to repent.
I SAID: Tell me then, what a true Christian would do in light of this refutation of Luke 22:36-38 as license for a Christian to use force? Remember, Scripture has no contradictions.
IN RESPONSE YOU SAID: [The Scripture sometimes gives different answers to slightly different questions not because it is contradictory but because the situations are not the same. Sometimes we see the difference in the context, in other cases we do not.]
“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword,”
YOU SAID: Not a contradiction. Sometimes doing the right thing hurts you or kills you. For example, imagine that an armed intruder breaks into your home. To protect your family you grab your trusty revolver. The burglar shoots you. You shoot the burglar. You both die. Your death is the punishment for taking your sword. You knew the deal. You still went ahead. Why? Because you saved others.
At the cost of your soul. Whereas, when you re-read Matthew 1-2, you’ll realize 5 dreams are given to believers in the LORD to warn and inform. I am blessed with dreams that warn of coming car accidents, and family deaths. I come against those dreams in binding prayer, and they don’t happen. The need for a gun is born out of a lack of hearing from God.
Do you really think Joe GunOwner could read Matthew 26:52, and sell his gun in honor of obeying Jesus, and then God rewarding Joe GunOwner with a thug that kills him? Do you believe God to be so unmerciful?
Did you read the parsing I did of Luke 22:36-38? Jesus quoted scripture that was unfolding before them where the disciples were counted as transgressors by picking up swords. Please do a full parsing of Luke 22:36-38 to show me how I mis-parsed it.
YOU SAID: In this light it is perfectly clear why one shall not wantonly brandish the sword. It is not consequence-free. This action is reserved only for the most dire circumstances, when you know the price but still are willing to pay it. The case of George Zimmerman is a very good illustration of this principle.
What you call action might better be categorized as sin. Where does the Bible say that sin “is reserved only for the most dire of circumstances, when you know the price but still are willing to pay it”? What do you think the price is that George Zimmerman paid that day when he killed Trayvon in self-defense?
“Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors
YOU SAID: This requires a Christian to be law-abiding. This is not under debate. The problem arises when the laws themselves, or their executors, are wrong. The Bible does not specify how human laws are put in place, and how those governors are assigned. This means it’s under the purview of our social order. We are free to elect our kings and our governors, and we are free to make our own laws. We are also free to change them whenever the society finds it necessary. God only specifies the framework within which we are allowed to manage our affairs. For example, it is prohibited to murder public officials just because you don’t like their policies. (Hardly anyone proposes that.)
Does scripture say in 1 Peter 2:13 to submit to “every ordinance of man” or “every ordinanace of man that you think is good, and the executors are good”. The scripture is plain, but you spent the above paragraph coming up with reasons why not to obey, or why this or why that. All without scripture.
1 Samuel 15:23 says “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”
YOU SAID: It is essential to read the entire chapter. It is about Saul rebelling against God: Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.
Re-read Romans 13:4 which talks about government authorities saying: “For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.” Government is a minister of God. Therefore, if rebellion against God is sin per 1 Samuel 15:23, why is rebellion against a “minister of God” per Romans 13:4 NOT sin?
YOU SAID: As matter of fact, it was Samuel who lawfully rebelled against Saul, the current king - and his rebellion was not simply legal, it was divinely inspired, and it had full support of God. God needed someone to tell Saul that he erred. Your quote, in fact, supports the position that errant rulers shall be made to answer for their mistakes. How exactly that is to be done? It varies. In Samuel’s case, a talk was sufficient: Saul replied, “I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD your God.”
Samuel did not rebel. Samuel told Saul that Saul rebelled, and Saul immediately agreed. Samuel did not point a sword and Saul and command Saul to change Saul’s mind. Equating Samuel using words to correct Saul, with US Citizens using guns to “correct” soldiers and police who come for them is not where you were going, right?
I SAID: Who said you have to go through all that? Job was hardly a hermit, but God called him perfect.
YOU SAID IN RESPONSE : Job’s shoes are pretty large. When someone among us is born to fill them, then perhaps we can revisit this issue. Saints have their own ways; but I am not one, and most people on this Earth aren’t saints either.
There are many commands in the Old and New Testament for believers in the LORD to be perfect. It is a requirement, and God doesn’t command us to do things that are impossible. Here’s a list of verses you should look at: http://holyrestoration.weebly.com/uploads/4/9/4/2/4942392/15_christian_perfection.pdf
YOU SAID: I have to go back to work now, no matter that it’s almost midnight on the West Coast. I know that nobody is going to do my job for me. (The criterion here is simple: if I can do it then it’s up to me to do it.) Thank you for the discussion, and best wishes!
I have other things to do as well. Thanks for your time.
YOU SAID: P.S. I do not subscribe to ping lists; instead I just browse the forum occasionally, read, and reply when it is appropriate. I’m actually pretty busy, I have more work to do than I can handle. This work is something that people actually need to do good things with, so I cannot be away from my design environment for long.
S’ok. I don’t take it personally. There’s a lot of rejection in life, and especially in evangelism. Maybe I’ll see you down the road on FR.