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To: Allon; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; Tennessee Nana; ...
If you really want to know, I provided a source.

Allon, if you "really want to know", I'm providing a source:

"L.D.S. Doctrine Of Baptism For The Dead.
Baptism Of The Dead Vs. The Bible

by William Woodson

The present article will summarise the L.D.S. doctrine of baptism for the dead (as set forth in a standard work by James E. Talmage) and reply to it from the standpoint of Bible teaching.

I. The Doctrine in Summary

This L.D.S. doctrine may best be understood in the context of their general view of baptism. According to Talmage, one who seeks membership in the Mormon church must be one who has “obtained and professed faith in the Lord Jesus Christ” and “sincerely repented of his sins.” One so situated is then to “give evidence of this spiritual sanctification by some outward ordinance,” ie., “baptism by water .” (P. 120, 2 Nephi 31:17) In Doctrine and Covenants 20:37 one reads those to be baptized must humble themselves, having “truly repented” of all their sins before being baptized. Baptism is regarded as essential to salvation (P 128) and those, as the Pharisees and Lawyers (Luke 7:30), who reject baptism are thereby “forfeiting their claim to salvation .” (P. 130)

In developing the doctrine of baptism for the dead, Talmage notes that not all have heard and obeyed the gospel. (P. 145) He asks what provision has been made for those who have died having neglected and/or never having heard the gospel? (P. 146) He then argues that though these negligent or untaught ones will be punished, they will be punished only long enough to bring about their needed reformation and satisfy God’s justice. (P. 147) Thus he teaches a second chance for those who die in rebellion against God. To support this he refers to I Peter 3:18- 20; 4:6 which he alleges teach the gospel is to be preached in the spirit world now by ministers of the gospel who have died. (pp. 149, 152)

But, since one in order to be saved must be baptized, this neglected “ordinance” can be received vicariously when children are baptized on earth for their fathers and ancestors who have died without being baptized. In this way the children, who receive this baptism for others, now dead, become “vicarious saviours” and have their faith strengthened by these good works. (pp. 151 -152) Thus the one baptized on earth is “acting as proxy for the dead.” (P. 153) Of course, he alleges, those in the spirit world may reject the blessings made available by proxy, but they are not compelled or hindered from the exercise of their free moral agency. (P. 153) All this is allegedly sustained by 1 Corinthians 15:29 (P 149), by visitation of an angel to Joseph Smith in 1823 and in 1836, (pp. 150 -151), and by the teaching of Joseph Smith in Doctrine and Covenants 128:18. (P. 151 ).

II. Response to the Doctrine

A. The present work will not discuss I Peter 3:19 -20: 4:6 although these verses are alleged in support of the doctrine. Brother Guy N. Woods has discussed these verses in his commentary and in a major article in the Gospel Advocate (July 31, 1975). Suffice to say, these verses do not teach a second chance for disobedient people, after death, to hear and obey the gospel. The great gulf which could not be crossed between the rich man and Lazarus (Lk. 16:26) and the fact that we will be judged according to deeds done in the body (2 Cor. 5:10) show there is no second chance after death.

B. Several aspects of the doctrine are not reconcilable with other aspects. For example, the idea that those, as the Pharisees and lawyers, who reject baptism and are “forfeiting their claim to salvation” clashes with the idea of “vicarious saviours” who later are baptized by proxy for them How can it be that one forfeits salvation but may later have a vicarious saviour? Since baptism, by proxy we are told, is only one of several “associated ordinances” does this mean that a “vicarious saviour” could observe the Lord’s Supper, pay tithes, etc., for the disobedient departed spirit who is not able to do so for himself?

The Book of Mormon, Alma 34:32- 36, teaches that the present life is the time to prepare to meet God and if one does not so prepare in this life “the night of the darkness” comes “wherein no labor can be performed.” How can this be made to fit with the view of a second chance after death? Also a final inconsistency to be noted in that between the prerequisites of baptism according to L.D.S. doctrine and the vicarious baptism allegedly performed If one lacks faith and repentance, as per their doctrine, his baptism is invalid. But, the dead, for whom this “proxy” baptism is allegedly performed, did not believe and repent before death.

How can the one being baptized by proxy know the act on his part is not rendered invalid because this disembodied spirit, in whose stead he is baptized, is without faith and repentance at the time of his proxy baptism? Can the one undergoing proxy baptism on earth know the intended recipient, in the spirit world, has believed and repented, though he died without belief and repentance? If he can, how does he know this? If he cannot, what is the status of this proxy act, on earth, during the interval between its performance and the proper faith and repentance on the part of the intended recipient? Does it simply float around in some ethereal storage house for proxy baptisms until the intended recipient, perhaps thousands of spirit world years later, decides to respond to the baptism of his vicarious benefactor by proxy baptism?

C. The “proxy baptism,” “vicarious saviour doctrine” of L.D.S., in order to sustain itself, must not only remove such inconsistencies as noted, but it must also show that the whole concept of proxy baptism is taught in the Bible, and that the vicarious baptism interpretation alone is the true interpretation of 1 Cor. 15:29. Instead, at least two other views of the passage are possible.

1. First, it is the case that the Greek word huper, in the expression “for the dead,” is defined by Thayer (P 639) as meaning “on account of, for the sake of” something or somebody. He explains by saying huper is used “of the impelling or moving cause” on account of which anything is done. He refers to such passages as the following to support this view: Acts 5:41, 9:16, 15:26, 2 Thess. 1:5, 2 Cor 12:10, John 6:51, John 11:4, Rom. 15:8, Phil. 2:13, 2 Cor. 1:6, Eph. 3:1, 13, 5:20, etc.

Arndt and Gingrich (P. 846) state concerning huper that it is used “to denote the moving cause or the reason because of, for the sake of,” and refers to verbs of suffering where it gives “the reason for it.” Verses cited as reflecting this meaning are: Acts 5:41, 9:16, 21:13, Phil. 1 :29, 2 Thess. 1:5, Eph. 5:20, Rom. 15:9, etc. Eminent commentators reflect this use of the term huper, as well, such as Robertson and Plummer, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, P. 359; and G. G. Findlay, Expositors Greek Testament, II, 931. Thus the verse refers to those who, out of regard for a dead Christian friend who previously taught them by word and deed, are baptized in obedience to Christ.

2. A second view, held by such men as G. R. Beasley-Murray,2 regards the verse as an ad hominem argument against an importation from possibly mystery religions or other Hellenic religions. The Corinthians were following this practice of Greek non-Christian religion and Paul refers to it to show the inconsistency of their practicing such by denying the resurrection. He thus demonstrated their inconsistency without arguing with their practice.

Thus, since no one today can believe, repent, or confess faith in Christ for another by “proxy,” we conclude for the same reason no one can today receive baptism for another. On either view set forth above, the verse, and hence the Bible does not teach the L.D.S. doctrine of baptism for the dead."

FOOTNOTES

1. James E. Talmage, A Study of the ArticIes of Faith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1964).

2. G. R. Beasley- Murray, Baptism in the New Testament (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1962), pp. 185 -192.

Link

This baptism for the dead is just another attempt by mormonism to set its doctrine above Christian belief and as in this article, proclaim mormons as "vicarious saviors" on a level with their god who was once a man.

20 posted on 03/05/2012 7:31:36 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (If Jesus returned today the mormon church would try to sell him a condo in their billion-dollar mall)
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To: All
For grins and chuckles,

Click Here for the official mormon genealogy site

Showing actual baptismal records.

21 posted on 03/05/2012 7:45:40 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (If Jesus returned today the mormon church would try to sell him a condo in their billion-dollar mall)
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To: greyfoxx39; Allon

It could be that Allon cant access the records for himself...

Why is that ???


22 posted on 03/05/2012 8:00:22 AM PST by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: greyfoxx39

Thanks for the link. Much more concise than my ramblings stating the same thing.

Mormons always pull 1 Cor out of context as a ‘proof text’ but don’t really understand it. They do the same thing with James.


48 posted on 03/05/2012 12:02:49 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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