Posted on 01/03/2012 5:41:30 AM PST by WesternCulture
Edited on 01/03/2012 6:47:15 AM PST by Sidebar Moderator. [history]
In Russia, many unaware people dream of a new era of expansion.
It won't happen.
Stalin is gone. Capitalism is not.
Russia is far more inferior by technological and overall societal standards than most Russians are willing to realize.
The Soviet Union of the late 1930's and early 1940's were ridiculed in combat by "tiny" Finland.
The reasons the brainwashed Soviets managed to invade lunatic Nazi Germany were:
- Allied bombings
- The war on three fronts that Germany faced (counting Northern Africa)
- The internal chaos of the Wehrmacht
The Soviet Union never has been a well organized part of the World. If it ever had been, East Germany would have been prosperous when it united with West Germany. But it was not.
In 1991, my father got to know a family in former DDR through work. They were well educated but lived in a small, poorly built apartment and didn't even own a car. Ten years after the reunion of Germany, they owned a very nice, well built house and when our family came to visit them, they drove up in front of the railway station, picking us up in brand new Volvos of the kind we drive here in Sweden!
I believe in Capitalism and in Nationalism. I've seen what it could do. I've witnessed what the opposite is unable of doing..
The future of Europe and Russia as well is Christianity and Capitalism, or there will be no future.
I agree with everything you say, but how does that tell us exactly how to deal with Putin (your title)??
The technique was later used by the United States on the Western front ~ friend of mine who'd been in the Germany Army as a 15 year old said you had to see it to believe it. From his vantage point in the bottom of a ditch he said the Americans had as many artillery pieces as the Germans had rifles.
The Finns also had the advantage of playing on the home ground, properly dressed, equipped with skis, and later on there were as many as 180,000 German troops on hand (doing lord only knows what).
As part of the "terms" for the cease fire Stalin demanded half of Finland ~ which he got ~ and he wanted the Germans kicked out of Finland ~ which he also got. They were booted North to enter Norway in the Winter .
Still, after defeating both Russia and Germany, Finland survived.
It took the Allies another 50 years to accomplish both tasks!
Finland vs. the Soviet Union:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLvhyfpSwEM
As war between the Soviet Union and Finland broke out, Sweden changed its diplomatic status from “neutral” to “non belligerent” and started supplying Finland with goods including weapons.
In sheer economical terms, the value of these shipments estimated to around half of Finland’s GDP or more on an annual basis.
“I agree with everything you say, but how does that tell us exactly how to deal with Putin (your title)??”
- Sorry for not being that very clear perhaps.
Either you tell them to give up on Socialism like most people already have done in former DDR and other parts of Eastern Europe, or you send in the Finns.
The Allied supply line to the Soviets (via Murmansk) also played a role.
My own experience with the Russians (from my own family no less): every Russian is part drama queen. If you understand that, a lot of things make sense. On the other hand, they are an extremely tough people when they need to be. Its an interesting combination.
Thanks for the insight. My own feeling is that Russia will re-emerge under Putin while the US continues to evanesce under Obama — largely because Putin has two qualities the US president does not: Putin is a strong leader and he believes in the greatness of his own country.
Really, there’s nothing much wrong with the Russians.
Basically.
The thing that really bothers me is their leaders.
Most Russians are good natured folks who’ve been exploited tricked and led astray throughout most of history.
We Swedes have a special relation to the people living in Russia and the Ukraine.
Swedish Vikings once were welcomed to this part of the World to build functioning societal structures.
A quote from the so called “The Primary Chronicle”:
“Our country is large and has everything in abundance except that we lack order and justice; come take possession and govern us.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
Murmansk was decisive, and for decades since, revisionists of many stripes have tried to keep that fact buried.
The Russians would not have been able to launch the massive counter-offensive against the Axis had it been otherwise.
Thank you, too, for your observation.
Thanks for pointing this out.
The major reason to Finland’s defeat of the Soviets in that war was them being a well prepared, patriotic, well organized nation.
Swedish support played a role, but their victory truly belongs to them and no one else.
Well, since they may not listen to mere words I guess what is left to do is to send in the Finns, right? So, when does the Finnish assault on Russia commence? Lol. I respect you WC, but every now and then you post funny stuff (like one of a Swedish submarine taking out St Petersburg, or another asking what would happen if Russia nuked London, Paris and Stockholm ...if Moscow nuked London and Paris it wouldn't matter if it nuked Stockholm or Timbuktu). Anyways, the Finns don't have the military to invade Sweden let alone Russia, and the only defense against Russian nukes for countries like Finland and Sweden still remains Uncle Sam. As for the dictator Putin - the growing resentment in Russia (which has been eroding his popularity), as well as the continued rise of the church, shows that the grasp of communism and evil in Russia is hopefuy getting blunted. But any rescue or destruction of Russia is completely out of the grasp of Sweden and Finland.
Well, since they may not listen to mere words I guess what is left to do is to send in the Finns, right? So, when does the Finnish assault on Russia commence? Lol. I respect you WC, but every now and then you post funny stuff (like one of a Swedish submarine taking out St Petersburg, or another asking what would happen if Russia nuked London, Paris and Stockholm ...if Moscow nuked London and Paris it wouldn't matter if it nuked Stockholm or Timbuktu). Anyways, the Finns don't have the military to invade Sweden let alone Russia, and the only defense against Russian nukes for countries like Finland and Sweden still remains Uncle Sam. As for the dictator Putin - the growing resentment in Russia (which has been eroding his popularity), as well as the continued rise of the church, shows that the grasp of communism and evil in Russia is hopefuy getting blunted. But any rescue or destruction of Russia is completely out of the grasp of Sweden and Finland.
Frankly no one saw that coming ~ Russian thought at the time was more toward small rockets, and the Germans thought tank supported infantry was still the big item.
Boy were those guys wrong.
Seen that one too!
One minute crying like a baby over a percieved slight, then next working six fourteen hour shifts in a row for weeks on end.
Crazy.
The source of my irritation is the kind of Russians who fail to believe in what blessings close cooperation between Russia, Western European nations and America could provide.
Anyhow;
You know damn well you lost a war against the Finns.
You also know Russia was the real loser of the Great Nordic War.
Trade patterns had already changed much in the Baltics before Denmark, Poland, Lithuania and Russia declared war on Charles XII. Crushing Sweden was not your solution.
This is one of the biggest mistakes Russia ever has made throughout history.
Russia defeated Sweden at Poltava, yes, but instead of creating an alliance of trust and trade, you were left with nothing but scorched earth and emperor's new clothes.
As for the Finns vs the Russians - yep, the Finns showed the world that they could fight (the sent the Russians a veritable 'butchers bill'), and the Swedes have a martial history that should definitely be respected. No argument at all there from me.
My point on this thread stemmed out if logic. The Finns (and/or Swedes) simply cannot take on the Russians today. The Russian military is a shadow of what it was during the Cold war, and even during the Cold war the Soviets relied on a lot of smoke and mirrors, but they are still beyond the Finns and Swedes. That is not disrespect against Sweden by the way - you, sir, have a lot to be proud about. Sweden is a great country with a rich history (talking to you over time led me to dredge up info in Sweden, and you have a lot to be proud of), but a Gotland would do anything to St Petersburg apart from destroy a couple of buildings, while ONE Borei could destroy all of Stockholm with ONE missile.
“I am not Russian”
- You are, more or less.
“The Finns (and/or Swedes) simply cannot take on the Russians today”.
- Not instantly perhaps, but given no time for preparations at all, the French probably couldn’t take Luxemburg.
If we Swedes could manage to defend our air territory (which we probably could do), we could use our automotive plants to manufacture tanks at a rate you couldn’t even imagine.
Today, the largest automotive plant in Scandinavia, the main plant of Volvo Cars, has a daily capacity of around 600-800 vehicles. This is just one single plant in one city.
Russia is not able of building 800 decent tanks a day given one year of preparations.
Question is if Russia could educate 800 tank drivers in one year.
Most Russians are good natured folks who’ve been exploited tricked and led astray throughout most of history.
“If you haven’t already, read Dostoyevsky’s “Notes from Underground”. Very illuminating about the Russian character.”
- I have read like 50% of what he has written, but so far I’ve not dealt with that title.
Sincere thanks for reminding me I should!
It's hard to make a very good argument that the Finns defeated the Soviets in the Winter War. They put up a good show against long odds, caused the Soviets an embarrassing number of casualties and showed the Germans how hollow the Russian military leadership was after Stalin's purges, but at the end of three and a half months of fighting, the Finns signed a peace treaty that gave 15% of their territory and 30% of their economic resources to the USSR. Pretty feeble kind of victory.
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