Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

To: Idabilly
Idabilly: "It was never intended that the citizens in a majority of states could employ the federal government as an instrument of violence to force the citizens in a minority of states to keep their states in the Union against their will.
BTW -The Unconstitutional invasion of Sovereign States was a breech of contract."

Idabilly, you know you are nothing but a propagandist when you refuse to acknowledge the basic facts of the case: that not only did Deep-South slave-holders unconstitutionally secede, but they simultaneously committed many acts of increasing rebellion and war against the United States before formally declaring war, on May 6, 1861.

No Federal troops were used to kill any Confederate soldiers before that declaration of war.

And once the Confederacy declared war, all such arguments as you make here are utter and complete rubbish -- fit only for dedicated propagandists.

Idabilly: "South Carolina had not taken Fort Sumter into her own possession, only because of her misplaced confidence in a government which deceived her."

Fort Sumter was Federal property, period.
Any Confederate action to restrict Federal access to Federal property was an act of rebellion or war against the United States.

The Confederacy had no more legal right to seize Fort Sumter than it did to seize a federal fort in, say, Massachusetts.

Idabilly quoting Wigfall: "If New England would only be content with the blessings which she imagines she has, we would not disturb her in her happiness.”---- Texas Senator Louis Wigfall:"

Wigfall resigned from the Senate on March 23, 1861, before Fort Sumter, but he advocated the Confederacy should seize both Sumter and Pickens.
Which means that his words here amount to nonsense and lies.

Wigfall arrived in Charleston, South Carolina, in time to cheer on Confederates seizing Fort Sumter.
He was later appointed a Texas infantry brigade commander, before serving in the Confederate Congress.
After the war Wigfall escaped to live in London, England, where he fomented trouble between the United States and Britain.
He died in 1874 in Galveston, Texas, where he is buried.

174 posted on 01/01/2012 9:48:08 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 172 | View Replies ]


To: BroJoeK
Idabilly, you know you are nothing but a propagandist when you refuse to acknowledge the basic facts of the case:

And you ignore the fact that the States are sovereign.

THE SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF WISCONSIN: The Constitution of the United States is, in its more essential and fundamental character, a tri-partite instrument. The parties to it are: The States, The People, and The United States. The latter is, indeed, a resulting party, brought into existence by it, but when thus created, bound in all respects by its provisions. It is practically represented by its several departments, deriving their powers directly and severally through its respective grants. It is derivative, not original. Previous to the operative vitality of the Constitution, this third party to the instrument was non-existent, and of course powerless. The other two parties, the States and the People, were pre-existent, endowed with all the essential elements of sovereignty.

One great and fundamental mistake has been made in respect to the second party to the federal Constitution, viz: the People. This party, here spoken of, cannot be considered as the people inhabiting the whole territory embraced within the boundaries of the original thirteen States, as operating in mass, as one undivided and indivisible community. Previous to the formation of the government of the United States, there was no such political existence; and of course, there being no such government, there could be no people of such government, or political division or organization. It is unnecessary, in this connexion, to refer to the confederation of the States, because that did not, in fact, constitute a government; nor will any one pretend that the people of the confederated States created the present federal government in their capacity of a primary and ultimate source of political power, operating to institute a new and original government; because, to have done this, they must have necessarily first dissolved the State governments under which they were then living and acting, and absolved themselves from allegiance thereto. They did no such thing. The "people" mentioned in the preamble to the Constitution, and often referred to in judicial discussions, must, it seems to me, necessarily mean the people of the United States; that is, the people of the several States united; so many uniting as were deemed a sufficient number to warrant the institution of the new government, and render safe the delegation of certain powers before possessed by the respective States. The State governments pre-existed. If a portion of the citizens of a State had assembled to divest the State of an attribute of its sovereignty, without the assent of the State, it would have been treason, or revolution. If the people of the whole territory of the thirteen States had combined to divest the respective States of any of their proper attributes of sovereignty, without the assent of the States, it would have been closely allied to treason or conquest. But it was neither the one nor the other. The people referred to, must be intended to mean the people of the respective States, operating legitimately through their properly constituted authorities, in conformity with their legally established modes of procedure. As the people of the respective States, did they adopt the Constitution. By the authority of the STATES were the people called upon to adopt or reject the Constitution. By the people of the respective STATES was it adopted and when ratified by nine STATES, Const. U. S. Art. 7, (not a majority of the people of the Union to be formed,) was it to become operative. The States, as such, were distinctly recognized through every stage of progress, from the inception to the consummation of the plan of Union; and through the State organizations only could the first step be taken, and through those organizations only can the people of the Union now impress their will upon the measures or action of the government. Indeed, the federal Constitution provides no mode by which, in any case, can the people of the Union affect the federal government, but through the State organizations, and by the instrumentalities furnished by the governments of the respective States.

The States, therefore, as pre-existing sovereignties, are clearly parties to the federal compact, and, together with their respective people, were the creators of the third party to the compact, viz: The United States.

Nor was the Constitution of the United States submitted to the whole people of the thirteen States for adoption, but to the people of each State, represented in convention called for that purpose, by the authority of each State. On the question of its adoption or rejection, the people of each State, whether many or few, had an equal voice. They spoke on that question for their State, and the small States had an equal voice with the large.

175 posted on 01/01/2012 10:32:13 AM PST by Idabilly (Tailpipes poppin, radios rockin, Country Boy Can Survive.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson