My apologies to the Forum admins if I have violated a copyright. Please delete if so.
Posted on 12/17/2011 9:08:40 PM PST by Kevmo
Horse manure.
"So what if the Italians changed their laws specifying requirements for a degree? It's highly unlikely that such changes were very substantial as far as actual work required for a given degree. I especially doubt that the requirements for PhDs were made MORE strict than when Rossi supposedly attended university."
If you had bothered to do a bit of work, you would have found out that the changes were quite substantial. My impression was that a new degree was added that WAS the equivalent of a US doctorate.
"It also doesn't help your case to quote an Italian as saying that until 1986, the highest degree offered was a Master's. That is, in effect, saying that it was impossible for Rossi to even get a doctorate."
The Italian quote said that the degree was "dottore", which at that time was probably, in effort, EQUIVALENT to a US Masters degree, not that it was a Master's degree. European and American degree levels are NOT equivalent.
Again, you are assuming things without checking.
"Last, I will reiterate that the degree Rossi claims to have earned from the U of Milan, the "Dottore Magistrale in Filosofia", is a Master's degree in Philosophy. It not only is not a doctorate, it isn't even a science degree."
My degree says "Doctor of Philosophy". Does that make me a philsopher?? I certainly took a whole bunch of science classes. Without knowing what course work was taken, neither you nor I can know precisely what the overall background in science Rossi gained from his university work was. At "liberal arts" type universities, a degree can vary substantially between people even though the final title on the diploma says the same degree level was attained.
"I don't know about you, but I've never dealt with philosophers in the lab. It appears to me that the specific degree name was selected so as to convey the impression that Rossi has a level of education that he does not; the Italian words for "Master's degree in Philosophy" sure do look like the English words "Doctor of Philosophy". Too bad (for Rossi) that we have Google and can check these things out.
Maybe you should actually spend MORE time on Google. An actual "Masters degree in Philosophy" transates as "Laurea in Filosofia". "Doctors degree in Philosophy" translates precisely as "Dottore in Filosofia". Your assumptions are once again in error.
You must really have thunder thighs, as you spend so much time jumping to conclusions.
The problem is that Rossi is implying that he has a Doctorate degree. And the letter provided as evidence (why not a transcript? why not a certificate? maybe a letter is easier to PhotoShop?) states that the degree received is a Master's, not a Doctorate.
Since you don't seem to disagree that the degree shown is a Master's, not a Doctorate, why are you quibbling about that point?
As for the subject matter, the "Dottore Magistrali di Filosofia" translates to "Master's Degree in Philosophy." That is NOT the same as our "Doctorate of Philosophy." In the former, "Philosophy" is referring to an actual academic subject. In the case of our degree, "Philosophy" can be taken more literally as "Love of Knowledge." It strongly appears to me that Rossi is using the name of a degree awarded in the subject of Philosophy for the very reason that in English, a person unfamiliar with Italian degrees (and who doesn't know about Google Translate) could see it and think it is a PhD.
And what the heck are you explaining to me about how the same degree can be awarded for widely different subjects of study? Did you miss the part where I said that I have a PhD, the fact of which implies that I have at least a passing familiarity with the American university system? Gee, at my graduation ceremony, there was a woman receiving a PhD in piano studies. Like, what the heck does a person do to earn a PhD in piano studies??? I'll bet she didn't spend 8-10 hours per day in the lab like I did!
And thanks for the suggestion that I spend MORE time on Google. I already spend hours on Google every day; a few more won't hurt, right? As for the translation of "Dottore Magistrale di Filosofia", the translation you get depends in part in how you enter it into Google Translate. Word by word, it is "master's degree in philosophy". Also, if you look at the original pdf file (a translation of which I posted in reply #21, this thread), the "letter" actually states that the degree was awarded in Philosophy. Plus, the letter was generated by the humanities department. I don't know about you; I didn't even know where the humanities department was when I was getting my PhD in biochemistry and molecular biology. I doubt that physicists in general have any more interest in humanities than chemists.
It's from way back in 1975 before the EU decided on a standardized categorization such as we have had in the USA for quite some time.
Your personal experience has nothing whatsoever to do with Italian universities then or now.
The "translation" of the terms in the degrees means nothing ~ they are IDEOMATIC EXPRESSIONS and have to be dealt with as a whole, and during the period the degrees were issued.
Frankly, the Internet hasn't been a lot of help in this ~ and I am surprised ~ totally flabbergasted in fact ~ that any Italian university could actually be teaching anybody about nuclear physics.
Quick, someone get on the intertubes and find out if our new engineer, Andrea Rossi knows what he is talking about or just has a new device to make Picard's Earl Gray.
From hospital intercom:
Muawiyah, time for your hourly ECT.
Many thanks to Dr. Demento.
He DOES have a doctorate. Just because the Italian degree system of 1975 had a different level of required effort doesn't change that. Again, the Italian response I am referring to specifically says....""dottore" entitles Rossi to claim the title of Dr."
"Since you don't seem to disagree that the degree shown is a Master's, not a Doctorate, why are you quibbling about that point?"
I "do" disagree. There is a major difference between the granted academic title and level of effort required to attain that degree.
As for the subject matter, the "Dottore Magistrali di Filosofia" translates to "Master's Degree in Philosophy."
It does NOT! Copy and past the phrase into your friend "Google Translate" and see what comes out.
"That is NOT the same as our "Doctorate of Philosophy." In the former, "Philosophy" is referring to an actual academic subject. In the case of our degree, "Philosophy" can be taken more literally as "Love of Knowledge."
No, it isn't the same. But courses of study can vary significantly with level of knowledge attained.
"It strongly appears to me that Rossi is using the name of a degree awarded in the subject of Philosophy for the very reason that in English, a person unfamiliar with Italian degrees (and who doesn't know about Google Translate) could see it and think it is a PhD.
Speculation.
"And what the heck are you explaining to me about how the same degree can be awarded for widely different subjects of study? Did you miss the part where I said that I have a PhD, the fact of which implies that I have at least a passing familiarity with the American university system?
My point is that within specific type of degree, vastly different levels of expertise can be gained depending on the courses taken, not that "the same degree can be awarded for widely different areas of study". You've got my point completely backwards.
One student trying for a degree in "Philosphy" might take a large number of science courses, while another student might take no science courses at all.....and still end up with the same academic title on exiting the process.
"Gee, at my graduation ceremony, there was a woman receiving a PhD in piano studies. Like, what the heck does a person do to earn a PhD in piano studies??? I'll bet she didn't spend 8-10 hours per day in the lab like I did!
Take two students majoring in "piano studies". One takes courses in acoustics, physics, mathematics, and the study of the science of the piano. The other takes music appreciation classes. Same degree.
"I didn't even know where the humanities department was when I was getting my PhD in biochemistry and molecular biology.
Shame. My university REQUIRED a certain number of humanities courses. I sometimes regret that I didn't take more...but didn't have time.
"I doubt that physicists in general have any more interest in humanities than chemists.
LOL. Look up the biographies of any of the top-level physicists (or chemists for that matter). Most of them have a VERY strong interest in the humanities. Much more so than humanities majors have in science.
I disagree.
I had a music theory teacher who was a PhD. She was a musical genius. The math for music is incredibly complicated; it's not just playing an instrument if you want to learn composing. Moving through the circle of fifths or backwards through fourths isn't easy even though there are rules. The program I went through was extremely rigorous. I was taking Calculus and Physics at the same time and believe me, I'd rather have the teacher hold up an F in calculus than have the teacher play something of mine that sounded terrible.
Music has its own math, its own language and its own rules. It's not the same as picking up and playing guitar hero. You've got to have the correct key, the correct time, correct tempo, know what the Italian words are for faster, arpegiating a chord, loud or soft, what the dots at the end of some bars mean not to mention the D.S. Al Coda.
If you know the movable 'do' system, you can create any key's scales such as major, minor, melodic minor, Harmonic Minor, Lydian, Phrygian and so on as well as any type of chord from a simple 1st, third and fifth to adding suspended notes and sevenths.
Believe me, we weren't judged because we were able to finish a piece of music as an exercise, we were judged on original music which a lot of people took really hard. Keep in mind we're not talking about popular music, we had to write music written in the style of the period of the late 1700s to some modern classical music which to me sounded like cr*p.
I disagree.
I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that getting a PhD in music would be no more difficult or complicated than writing a few notes on a piece of music paper. What I said was that I bet anything that getting the PhD in music (actually, in piano) did not involve spending inordinate amounts of time in the lab, and that I don't know what the heck it involves. There really is nothing judgmental in that.
I bet she spent inordinate amounts of time in front of a piano. Now, having said that, I think getting a PhD in a subject that requires field studies, control groups, massive amounts of data compiling as well as interpreting is probably a lot (a big lot) different than getting a PhD in Piano studies.
For the record, I don't think you said anything judgmental either way. Those of us on the engineering track didn't have a whole lot of respect for liberal arts majors but with the benefit of hindsight, I think it's actually a hard degree to get (English that is, not social studies of whatever weepy subject the faculty thought up). In fact, I thought of minoring in English if there even is such a thing but I was already swamped with music, engineering and electronics. Final note, although my title is an Engineer, I don't have the degree to support it although I could teach your kids music.
Then neither do yours from post 60 yet you don't even see the dichotomy.
I love the snooty, dare I say pretentious language about how students that didn't take fifty languages have nothing on you.
Did you, sometime in the past, have your Corpus callosum severed? You appear to suffer from a split brain, among myriad other issues...
I find it amazing how you are an expert on every subject there is, impressive and you learned it while you sorted mail for forty years. You really ought to thank Google and Wiki.
I suppose I might have sorted some mail but my secretaries would have needed to open it first.
Your typical physician starts out as a student in some department inside the College of Arts and Sciences. Maybe he studies chemistry ~ here’s the Indiana University statement on the issue ~ rather informative: http://hpplc.indiana.edu/medicine/med-prep.shtml
My apologies to the Forum admins if I have violated a copyright. Please delete if so.
Believe it or not, I do have an idea how the edumacation system works.
Ever read a book?
Just because, in Italy, someone with a Master's degree awarded prior to the institution of a doctoral degree within the Italian university system in the mid-1980s was allowed to use the title "Dr." in Italy (and only in Italy, it said that in Wiki), does not make their degree a doctorate. The Magistrale or Laurea degree required 5 years of university, total--which simply is not PhD level work.
As for what real Italians have to say on the meaning of "Dottore Magistrale in Filosofia", two Italians posted in this thread, the last two responses.
Penultimate response:
It's a Master degree.
I'm italian.
Ultimate response:
Yup, a Master. In philosphy, it required an "experimental" thesis, that is an original work, but not of the quality required for a PhD. In Italy, one is called "Dottore" with that degree. Indeed, it used to be the highest degree until 1986, if I remember correctly the year.
I'm surprised you haven't even addressed my other critique of the letter supposedly verifying Rossi's academic credentials, which is that it appears doctored (font sizes change for no reason; there are extra spaces between words in a non-right justified document; the date formats are inconsistent).
Last, I'll say that it must have been nice getting a PhD back in the 70s, when you apparently had lots of time to take classes in non-related subjects. Even had my program allowed for it, I simply did not have the luxury to take non-science classes.
Gee, that's like getting a poison pen letter from Manson.
Considering all the signs you exhibit, you might want to, in you more lucid states, mosey on down to the local Psychologist. While they have meds that can fix brain impairment, you have to take them as soon as you notice a problem. They may stop further degradation, but you won't get back what you've lost.
Think of me as you sort mail.
Are you sure it's not Obama's birth certificate? /s
You are pretty obviously totally delusional. I think a good trepanning would help you out a lot. There’s a lot of rage and pressure in there that needs venting ~
Look, dunce. I never said it was "PhD Level work". Just that he was entitled to use the title "Dr". I suspect that if a Brit moved to the US, and had a KCBE (Knight Commander of the British Empire) honorial, that he would still append that title to his correspondence.
"Yup, a Master. In philosphy, it required an "experimental" thesis, that is an original work, but not of the quality required for a PhD. In Italy, one is called "Dottore" with that degree. Indeed, it used to be the highest degree until 1986, if I remember correctly the year.
Which I already knew, and said so.
"I'm surprised you haven't even addressed my other critique of the letter supposedly verifying Rossi's academic credentials, which is that it appears doctored (font sizes change for no reason; there are extra spaces between words in a non-right justified document; the date formats are inconsistent).
Why should I bother? There is plenty of verification that Rossi has a legitimate degree from U. of Milan. Lewans, Krivit, and others have verified it. There is some confusion among them as to whether the degree is "laurea" or "dottore", which makes me think this whole "mountain from molehill" has a lot more to do with errors in translation than with any nefariousness.
"Last, I'll say that it must have been nice getting a PhD back in the 70s, when you apparently had lots of time to take classes in non-related subjects. Even had my program allowed for it, I simply did not have the luxury to take non-science classes.
LOL. I was referring to my undergraduate tenure. You say you spent "8-10" hours a day in the lab. By my standards, you were a slacker. I spent WAY more time than that "at the bench". 'Twas useful, too, as I got through my doctorate in three years.
I already did that in honor of the Christmas season. Now I have a festive candle sticking out of my head. It’s a great conversation piece.
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