The 9-9-9 Controversy.

The Silent Majority ^ | 10-19-11 | Southernman

[Lexluthor69]

During the Republican presidential debate in Las Vegas candidates once again attacked Herman Cain on his 9-9-9 plan. One bone of contention that stood out was the issue of state taxes.

The other candidates, Mitt Romney in particular, made a point to note that Cains plan would add taxes in addition to state taxes (the following quotes were taken from a CNN article you can find HERE) :

Romney said Cain’s plan would add federal taxes on top of state taxes.

That is absolutely true but somewhat misleading. No candidate has proposed a plan that eliminates state taxes. The truth is state taxes are not under the purview of the federal government to begin with.

States can levy sales taxes, property taxes and income taxes in addition to any federal tax. For Romney and others to intimate otherwise is disingenuous.

What Cains plan attempts to do is simplify the tax code and remove the bureaucracy that supports it. By doing so he will effectively limit the governments power to use the tax code to punish and reward individuals and companies. Cain alludes to this in one of his responses during debate:

“The reason my plan is being attacked so much is the lobbyists accountants and politicians, they don’t want to throw out current tax code and replace with something that’s simple and fair,” Cain responded.

Newt Gingrich did make a valid point however when he said:

“There are much more complexities than Herman let’s on,” said former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.

There is no doubt that some unintended consequences could arise if the plan is not carefully studied and a strategy developed far in advance of its implementation. This does not mean that Cain’s plan is unworthy of discussion.

[Sudetenland]

Yep. I am far from sanguine about Cain's 9-9-9 plan, far from sanguine, but Romney et al's attack based on there being state sales taxes was intellectually dishonest--not the only lie Mitt got caught in last night (I am specifically referring to his claim that he got the "mandate idea" from Newt).

The "state sales tax" issue is a complete red herring--you pay that in addition to the federal income tax and payroll tax, just as you would pay it in addition to any national sales tax--the net result is a zeroing out of any net outlay (or nearly so).

Cain was Cain's worst enemy last night. His "apples and oranges" argument was almost incoherent. I understood what he was trying to say, but he did a very poor job of explaining it and his saying again and again, "go to my website and read my explanation," while perfectly reasonable, is not a way to win a debate or to score points--and as distasteful as having to "score points" in a debate like this is, it does matter. Appearances matter, the ability to articulate clearly and concisely what you believe and what you advocate matters. Each stumble matters--as we have seen with Rick Perry's rise and fall.

[C. Edmund Wright]

>>> Exactly! Ergo, it was even worse than nothing accomplished. Herman needs to have his responses crafted by Art Laffer and stop merely saying ‘go to my website’. >>>

Good idea. As someone who generally likes 999, I have some questions about it and those questions are the legit things that folks on our side should be bringing up.

But when the best we have is to rehash the retarded David Gregory’s line of attack, it is stupifying and horrifying .

[JIM O]

Cain at this stage does not have a very impressive organization. I suspect and hope now that he is enjoying an increase in contributions he will build his team quickly. I feel there are some major problems that exist with 999, but also feel the concept of simplification is essential and hopefully the specifics of 999 are stenthened as we move on.

Cains organization will be key to his success and I am hopeful he is able to pull it together quickly.

[NoGrayZone]

Your point is dead on. The others DO NOT have a plan, which is why they attack Cain's 999.

It's so much easier to criticize then to come up with your own solutions.

[Right_in_Virginia]

IMHO if the income tax is not eliminated completely then Cain—or whoever—can just stop with thinking we’re okay with adding another tax.

Cain needs to explain his “999” plan this fully—with more than “go to my website”—or we need to recognize that his 15 minutes are just about up.

Sorry—but this election is too important to get it wrong. We may need to thank Cain for shining a light on this issue AND turn to someone who can articulate it and fix it.

[C. Edmund Wright]

Well put. I’ve seen about ten comments on this thread already that are intellectually above anything that was said last night. Our guys are either dumber than we thought, or they think we are too dumb to follow an adult argument.

Very very disappointing evening all around.

[Servant of the Cross]

Cain's organization will be key to his success and I am hopeful he is able to pull it together quickly.

I concur with this opinion. Perhaps an invitation to Art Laffer from Team Herman is in order.

[shortey22]

Bottom line: Most people’s taxes would go up!! Do the math. Sit down and figure it out for YOUR situation. What are you paying now? What will you pay under the 9-9-9 plan in income taxes and sales taxes. And don’t forget the impact of the payroll taxes. Do you REALLY think you won’t have to pay anything for whatever will replace social security?

[AmericanInTokyo]

Point well taken.

[stephenjohnbanker]

” “It is unclear if the other candidates are simply piling on Cain because he is leading in the polls or if they are simply ignorant of his plan but it is clear that they are misrepresenting his intentions wholesale.” “

Cain is going to kick their butts, and they know it : )

[NoGrayZone]

Cain's 999 plan is just the stepping stone to a new tax structure.

Check out his website.

Any change in our current tax code will create some type of tsunami, in the beginning. However, it must be done. We cannot continue under what we have and survive.

[C. Edmund Wright]

>>> I would prefer 15-15 to 9-9-9 >>>

I think your suggestion shows the brilliance of the 999 plan in a way. And by that, it shows the greatness of simplification. I can understand your 15-15 or Cain’s 9-9-9 instantly. Whatever we have as a tax plan, it SHOULD be something that is understood instantly. Moreover, it should be something that can not be monkeyed with and the devil in the details hidden.

With 999 or 15-15 or whatever, we instantly know what we have and we instantly know who and when anyone would try and change it in the future.

Imagine, simplicity leading to accountability. We need to wake up and understand that “murkiness and complication are the atomic weaponry of bureaucrats.”

Stole that line from myself in AT....

[justsaynomore]

“Buy used. I do. I could have saved a bundle under 999.”

We are middle class. I ran the numbers for my family - and we buy most things used. I was pleasantly surprised to find that we would actually be able to afford to buy more new if we wanted.

Hubby ran the numbers for his business - after reverting the 7.65% into employee pay, he found he would also be able to bring on some more employees (yay!)

[stephenjohnbanker]

” Cains organization will be key to his success and I am hopeful he is able to pull it together quickly. “

There are indications that the Koch brothers may back Cain. If true, this will help immensely, as they are down to their last 30 BILLION : )

[NoGrayZone]

He already is....and they know it!

[EagleUSA]

Care should be taken to watch out for what this idea would do to retired seniors on fixed incomes and social security. They cannot handle LARGE sales taxes.

[mylife]

I think the problem is that it Adds a sales tax to state sales taxes which would kill people who are no longer working and don’t see the benefit of Mr Cains other lowered taxes.

[stephenjohnbanker]

Yep

[ken21]

that’s right.

[Ingtar]

15-10-0 yields almost as much. The trouble is that all of the taxes are still hidden, so they are easier to raise without people realizing that they have skin in the game.