Posted on 10/11/2010 4:56:01 PM PDT by joeclarke
Thank you for the warning.
I have known for awhile that both Cliff and Ure are anti- Christian in their bias. I still look at what they find interesting, but I see it as a christian, and they seem incapable of seeing past their biases. And your right, it has been getting worse. It is one of the reasons I don’t get the ALTA reports. I get bits and pieces from Ure’s site, and posts here at FR, that is enough for me.
I think that this technique Cliff has reminds me of the Bible. God decided to tell us His message, in a book, in language, in stories. It is almost there is a spiritual law of language where God’s voice, God’s creative power is still echoing though our language today. Fascinating.
“For in him we live, and move, and have our being;...” Acts 17:28
Thanks much, TC. Appreciate your warning and commentary:
Remember, take Clif’s interpretations with a huge grain of salt.
He looks at everything through the “Evil Zionists Control the World” lens now, for some strange reason.
I think it comes back to that spiritual radio receiver metaphor I came up with a few months ago. Clif ain’t tuned to KGOD, so he picks up foreign, destructive signals by default.
And Clif is about as far from Christian as I’ve ever encountered, now becoming *hostile* to not only Christianity as a concept, but Christians as people.
His original contribution to science will prove to be immense, and my work would have never happened if it wasn’t for him as an inspiration. But he’s sort of turning into the “Henry Ford” of psi linguistics who, though brilliant, had a chubby for Nazis.
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
See post #140.
Thanks for the heads up!
Thanks Ron.
Though, you make your point rather delicately...
by content, I agree comepletely w/ your sentiment.
I see Glenn Beck trying to do his best for his country and no matter what the efforts or how incredibly effective they are in uniting us in a common cause...
Seemingly passionate but shallow thinking people tend to reserve the right to affix a label or stereotype to anyone they are uncomfortable or threatened with to ensure they are not elevated beyond their grasp.
I say, anyone... ANYONE...in Glenn’s position would have the same difficulty reconciling a truly conservative movement with people of different races, economoic conditions, religions, cultures or philosophies and yet... you can’t afford him a little well earned latitude because he’s too Mormon for you? If a protestant is staunchly opposed to Catholicism by virtue of religion then where is defamation of Catholics? silence. If Catholics believe the tenents of their faith then Protestant denominations are all wrong. Who demonizes them? Unapologetically, Mormons who are, generally speaking, a bastion of morality in all our communites have to endure hardship from who? Christians? ..really? So I guess, when Jesus Christ said... “by their fruits ye shall know them..” it speaks loudly of them and rather poorly of us, right? That is, of course, unless we choose to “interpret” what that REALLY meant, right?
So we bash Glenn for being Mormon, since obviously ALL his frailties must be attributable to that. Not that he was Catholic, not the he lived in NY, not that he was a recovering alcoholic. It’s because he’s Mormon!.. so we look for the hidden code in his words? ..we look closely for his “protective underwear” to justify demonizing his Christian walk. It’s wrong. Worse - it’s shameful! It’s particularly morally wrong to benefit from a person’s efforts but with conditions.
Do you really think that Glenn doesn’t know that you’re going to demonize him for no particular reason other than you know better than he does, after all, what he REALLY believes? Is that the best defense, really? That you know about HIS religion more than HE does? ..is that the defense?Because frankly, it’s superbly weak!!!
At the end of the day folks, it’s not about the book you read. It’s not about the name of your church. It is certainly NOT (evidence by this forum) whether we can all fit under YOUR or MY definition of Christianity.
It comes down to whether what you learned, what you’ve been exposed to, how you where raised and then how you CHOSE to live your life, our habitual walks and relationships with Christ, and does that walk draw us closer to GOD. Is the process edifying us? Are we becoming fundamentally better for it? Is our strife to overcome our natural tendencies genuine?
Let’s be clear it’s not about the book. Jesus Christ did not give us a book so we could walk around thumping our chest saying “I’ve got the book! Have you read the book? I am sure that is NOT what he had in mind. Bible of Book of Mormon.
The books are a “means” to that greater end. Focus on the END! Is it moving us towards that objective? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT MATTERS. You can read all the book you want... but of the book you owned didn’t make the difference then it didn’t matter did it? Notice our inherent problem is not a lack of information...it is rather, our ability to act in faith. In that sense “action” is a principle of faith. Our faith is wasted... if it doesn’t, in turn, produce an action from us. A change or modification in our behavior that pulls up upwards to HIM inspired by the Holy Spirit.
It’s not about the name of the building!! The church IS A MEANS TO A GREATER END!!!
I really believe Christ would chastise us for wasting so much time on our differences and not investing more time building on what unites us. Trying to understand more and trying to be understood a little less.
It is about whether it the gospel broke your heart... if the teaching provides you a conversion process that draw you closer to our Father in Heaven. Period!
There is NOTHING CHRISTIAN about striving to define what SOMEONE ELSE’S RELIGION BELIEVES. That is just tragically incorrect and far from ANY Christian virtue.
Truth is - seeking truth requires an above human degree of personal discomfort and waiting for someone to tell YOU what the truth is not by any measure “seeking” anything... waiting for someone to define what Christ did for you and how you should live your life is the same level of thinking that brought about the indiscretions of the church that eventually led people to protest.
The fundamental problem we have is that no matter how honest or sincere our efforts are ...we still have plenty of pesky mortals in our churches, even running much of them, and that means errors and problems and embarrassments from time to time.
We need to get over our differences and give ourselves as “Christians” the latitude to grow honestly without the fear of being held in contempt and ostracized (sp) by our society anytime we don’t get it exactly right or exactly the way someone else sees it.
I know it is about John 3:16...we get it. I just hope we don’t forget in our Christian zeal that God..” sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
All of us, including the very good folks of the Mormon church, should be afforded the latitude to figure it out according to the dictates of their own conscience. Now THAT, is an uniquely AMERICAN virtue and unerringly Christian.
This is no time to divide us!! We need to strive to weld together as Christians (followers or those willing to stand with Christ) right now.
Thanks for giving me the forum to vent and share a bit.
God Bless!
The implication in your comment is wholly incongruent with Mormon teaching.
Though Mormon teaching does believe in a requisite restoration - meaning that man cannot reform what only God can restore. That doesn’t however imply that ALL aspects of Christianity were erroneous since his mortal ministry. It, quite likely meant that MAN had made some mistakes along the way and that we might have straid from the objective. If that was the case Mormons would not teach and study the Bible as a canon of scripture at all but they do rather deliberately.
Being Mormon myself, I can tell you that Mormons don’t embrace another gospel or another Jesus at all. That notion is simply false.
I would be glad to go with anyone to any random meeting in the church that includes gospel teaching to put that falsehood to rest once and for all.
Truth is, in the absence of personal experience no one can reasonably know. If one had the power to overcome the discomfort of letting the mainstream define your beliefs and fill you with misinformation and instead, invested the time with the LDS church long enough to see what they are REALLY all about - you would be flabbergasted at the unjust mischaracterization and disinformation these people endure. I say that as a person that was raised Catholic and invested substantial active time with the Baptist Church, The Methodist Church and Non-denoms.
In fact, I would challenge any reasonable seeker to put me to the test. Attend their meetings, invest your time and determine for yourself if what you observe is ANYTHING less than CHRISTIAN. You are on you honor, just go. Do your own thinking.. see what it really produces without someone having to look over your shoulder to qualify your findings.
The Epistle of James teaches “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
A fourteen year old boy named Joseph Smith had the very same concerns and that is what he acted upon.
to his own surprise he got the message he got and the rest, as they say, was history and what a story!
I, for one, love that story. I believe that story. It jibes with my thinking and it is confirmed with what I feel when I pray about it.
But hey.. don’t take my word for it. That’s not how the process works. everybody gets to do their own homework on this one! :)
I have done my homework - which is how I know the counterfeit from the real thing.
I’m pinging a few folks who have resources at their disposal which are not on my computer. What I will ask them to post are the actual quotes from Momronism’s founders and teachers who said that a complete apostasy existed which Smith was given to end. What these teachers taught was that ALL the denominations were corrupted. They taught that the notion of the Trinity was a demonic lie. They asserted that the Bible was okay, as far as it is translated correctly. And the current doctrines of Mormonism show that Mormonism is the only way to salvation in the ‘heaven of God’s presence’ because ONLY Mormon baptism can help save you, not Catholic baptism, not Presbyterian baptism, not Methodist baptism, ONLY Mormon baptism. And Mormonism has an entire elaborate proxy baptism for the dead which shows this error of ‘exclusivity’.
Mormons believe Jesus was married at the marriage feast in Cana where He changed water into wine.
Mormons believe that the Mormon jesus was married to more than one woman.
The Mormon jesus was persecuted because he was a polygamist.
The Mormon jesus came into existence when his father in heaven created him along with his brothers and sisters, as a spirit being who was not yet a god.
Mormons believe Lucifer was one of the Mormon jesus's brothers, before the Mormon jesus became a man and later a god.
The Mormon jesus has become one individual god in a troika of gods which includes the Mormon jesus's father--who was once a man and inhabits a body of flesh and bones and through goodness gained the attributes of godhood when he was selected by a council of gods to be the god of earth--and the ‘never to receive a fleshly body’ holy spirit.
The Mormon jesus can save you, after all that you can do to be worthy of the grace of the Mormon godhead--which is, again, a troika of three gods working for a common purpose.
Mormons believe their jesus can save a person who rejected Him while in their body, by accepting a proxy baptism for them performed in a Mormon Temple by a Temple worthy Mormon.
The Mormon jesus gained the attributes of godhood through the life he lived in the flesh, which gained for that jesus exaltation.
___________________________________________________________
Every one of that list of the Mormon jesus characteristics is based upon the teachings from Mormon leaders who are attested as true by Mormons, for if they do not swear they attest to these teachers' characterizations then they have no temple recommend!
When a Mormon accuses someone who opposes those heresies regarding Jesus of lying about their religious beliefs, we post the actual quotes of the teachers who said these things about the jesus Mormons are trusting to save them after all that they can do. And when one comes to make a vague accusation because of this post, I will list the quotes.
Thanks for your willingness to confront this with their own words. I’m so weary of those who come to lead many astray with doctrines of demons & practices of men.
It is my duty, m’Lady.
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
Thank you, brother. Those were indeed the quotes I sought. I’ve got them archived now ...
God took a part of Himself and gave that to man.Jesus was God as a man,therefore separated from God to a degree.In no way does this idea suggest that Jesus was a created being..Deceit is all around,research and study weighed in the balance of common sense is the order of the day.
We will find out in the end..definitely not a creation of this earthly creation, Christ is its creator..maybe much more, we will see.Come Lord..
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