Nice thing was, they were a no-batteries job, gathered light through the plastic *nose* at the front.
There's one at the JFK Center for SpecWar Museum:
Posted on 06/18/2010 5:25:32 PM PDT by Travis McGee
Okay, this wasn't a bench-by-bench comparison. But I did shoot one rifle last week at my range, and the other rifle today at a guest range. Both ranges are in Florida, if you care, on opposite coasts.
Both rifles were comparable M-4gerys. Top end or close to to top end. (Not junk.) Similar stocks, barrels, etc. I'm not going to mention the makes, because it's not the point of my essay tonight. Trust me, both are fine, fine rifles that are capable of greater accuracy than I ever will lend to them.
Okay. Rifle #1 sports a 1 power EOTech sight and a compensator/muzzle brake. The EOTech's 1X aiming point is a one minute of angle red dot, surrounded by a red circle. If you have read this far, you already know this.
Rifle #2 sports a 4X Trijicon ACOG and a flash suppressor. The ACOG's reticle is an orange triangle, the aiming point is the top tip. In both cases I was shooting from a bench and offhand at 100 yards at standard 100 yard NRA targets. These are about 2 feet square, with about a 10" black bullseye graduated with rings. I wasn't counting scores, but initial sighting-in groups, and then offhand effectiveness.
Impressions: the Trijicon is the finest sight I've ever shot on a combat carbine, period. Bar none. Better by far than my EOTech, Aimpoints (4 minute of angle red dots) and various other optical and electronic sights I have used. Off a rest, the Trijicon was shooting a sub 2" group, and I suck at bench rest shooting. I cannot get my EOTech to shoot that well, even though it has a 1 MOA red dot, mainly because my "over 50" eyes are starting to slip, maybe. The best bench groups I could get with the EOTech were about 4". The 4X Trijicon brought that 10" bull in sharp and clear. The triangle top reticle is like a surgeon's scalpel. Sub 2" bench groups were easy. Yet it's also bright and fast and "intuitive."
Bench rest verdict: Trijicon wins, hands down.
Standing, offhand. To get a little realism into the comparison, I shot identical NRA targets offhand, "semi-rapid fire." A combat carbine is about shooting with speed while running around and trying not to get shot. Bench rest performance is just step one. Standing offhand with both rifles/sights, I could really kill that 10" bull at 100 yards. The 1 MOA EOTech is easily centered. Offhand, both rifles and scopes were far better than the shooter, me. But to be truthful, semi-rapid fire standing, and going through entire 30 round mags to simulate realistic fatigue, I found it much easier to stay "all in the black" with the Trijicon. That 4X triangle is just so damn good. And it has built-in stadia steps under the triangle for 400 and 600 yards. I'd hate to be a Taliban with ten Marines chasing me with M-16 A3 mounted with Trijicons!
Offhand accuracy at 100 yards: Trijicon wins again.
Second discussion: flash suppressor vs. muzzle brake. One area where I must give credit to my own M-4gery with the EOTech is due to its brake/compensator. Yes, the 5.56mm "mouse gun" does not have much recoil. Yes, your ten year old little sister can shoot it without crying. BUT, my muzzle brake/compensator makes a fast rifle even faster. The Trijicon with the flash suppressor was more accurate, but just a bit slower than the EOTech with the brake. The Trijicon/flash suppressor would jump off of the target just enough between semi-rapid fire shots to force you to "re-acquire" the bull on the triangle.
But my EOTech with the compensator (no holes on the bottom, for zero "muzzle flip" means that my 1moa EOTech red dot stays dead-tits on the center of the bull between shots. If the ranges allowed true rapid fire, I'm sure that's when the brake would really shine. (No 'one second per shot rule'.) With the brake you can just nail your target all the way through a magazine, with both eyes open, never ever losing your point of aim even for a nanosecond.
But with no magnification, the EOTech just could not maximize the accuracy the way the Trijicon did.
My recommendation for the deadliest combo? Put a Trijicon on top of your M-4gery, and a muzzle brake/compensator on the front. Then you will be able to attack targets like a damn sewing machine! Who needs full auto, when you can just DRILL a target at 100 yards as fast as you can shoot?
I wish I was still out west at a "free range" gravel pit where I could put this theory to the test. But our Eastern RSO's just don't like hearing 30 round mags go out in under 30 seconds.
Now, everybody enjoy. I'm going out to dinner with my wife.
Well it has been thoroughly humiliating reading about everyone’s toys when I can’t even afford to buy some non-corrosive ammo for my 98 Mauser.
Nothing wrong with corrosive ammo that a little soapy water won’t cure.
I've never hunted prairie dogs before, and I tell ya, those things are like nature-made popup targets. It's simply hysterical how they pop up, duck down, pop up, disappear to reappear somewhere else several seconds later; there will be one, then two, then none, at ranges from 10 to 300 yards. They're small, too -- biggest we saw couldn't have stood more than about 10" high.
My bro has a Savage bolt-gun with a 6x Weaver on it in .17HMR -- I've never fired it before, and at one of the shooting holes we frequented before our jaunt, we had these 5" water-filled "Ensure" bottles set out at about 110m. From a sandbag on the hood I took 10 shots and hit the targets 10 times. One sweet rifle -- the thing doesn't know how to miss when used like that, and the reticle stays fixed on target the whole time. My boy got one about ever other shot, and my 8-yo daughter was nailing them about 1 in 3 -- and this was her first time out shooting. She actually adapts to the oversized gun better than my boy when he was her age. What can I say -- they're both naturals. $:-)
Offhand, though, this hbar gets heavy fast, although my son did get a couple of hits within a couple of inches from one poodle at about 75m. If it had been a rabbit, we'd have been having stew. He also got to inspect a few that my bro and I had nailed, and displayed no squeamishness at all. He's got the Brower genes, all right.
Me? I had my Colt R6601 (AR15A2 HBAR sans bayo lug) that I had mailed out a month previously. Stock config w/iron sights, using Lake City M855 green-tip that I had drop-shipped from ammoman.com. I got one poodle offhand at about 60m, and it flipped the critter a foot off the deck and backwards; pretty much vivisected. A couple more occasions had me chasing them on the move at about 150-200m, with hits getting within a few inches on several occasions; eventually I had to stop because I was laughing too hard. First blood for that particular rifle.
You aren't kidding. But I can attest that the TA31 can be dropped onto concrete from five feet and not only stay intact but maintain zero.
Please don't ask me how I know this. $:-)
It took me a loooong time to warm up to the idea of red-dot/holographic glass on a rifle intended for rugged use. It wasn't until I witnessed the nearly universal glowing reviews of tens of thousands of Aimpoint M2s that were standard issue on battle rifles in Iraq.
NOBODY beats on a piece of equipment like a GI (who didn't buy it) in a battle zone.
Another positive for red-dots/holographics is that they are much faster to put on target than iron sights, and you shoot with both eyes open so situational awareness is better.
Well, I’m sold. Need to find a suitable one and a mount for an Austrian StG58 FAL.
And the money. Saving those nickels and dimes...
Nice thing was, they were a no-batteries job, gathered light through the plastic *nose* at the front.
There's one at the JFK Center for SpecWar Museum:
Used by the Brits on the L1A1 SLR, particularly in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, and by the Gurkhas on M16A1s. The SUSAT sight used on the current L85A2 SA80 rifkle is a derivitive.
Very robust unit, used a tritiun light source in an inverted reticle that was VERY fast to use- when the rifle jumped upward during recoil, you just brought the pointy reticle back down to the next target and pressed again.
Sort of the original *point and click interface.* The Russian IP29, commonly used on the RPK and RPK74S was a copy.
Ever hang around tank crews much?
I think I’d have to fire that rifle upside down, to make the reticle appear “right!”
Iron sights on prairie dogs, that’s giving them a chance!
A great time was had by all. Except for the sod poodles, that is. $;-)
Looking around at Optics Planet, *dang* there are a lot of variations of this sight. I assume you likely had a 4x32 with the above reticle. Something like this.
Almost. There was a bright orange triangle in place of the red chevron.
How did you kids take to wiping out a species of furry cuddly “pets?”
The TA11 on my DMR has the red chevron, but the TA33 is what you were using on the DPMS M4gery.
My daughter wasn't with us, so her reaction wasn't there to measure. My son treated it all quite matter-of-factly. With someone like me for a dad, the heads-full-of-mush Bambi-BS doesn't have much of a chance to sink in. In all fairness, though, I've found most kids his age are a bit more rational about such matters than the public schools system would like to admit. $:-)
It must have been great. What a “teaching moment.”
“Someday, son, we may have to wipe out a LOT of ‘rats.”
Those who are lucky never need to find out. But luck isn't the best thing to rely on, as well both well know.
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