Gilbo_3 : Despite your great fondness for Luke 22:36, the heart of the New Testament is Love, and fights that are spiritual, not physical. It might be possible to make a case for personal self-defense against random violent riffraff per Luke 22:36, but I doubt you could for armed revolt against the government, whether started by militias, or by government persecution, given Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2:13. I have no doubt that you and 90 million gun toting patriots can overthrow 3 million government agents. They don’t have a chance. Turkey shoot. Spam they would be. However, you’re forgetting that the last thing Russia/China will want/allow is a country where the conservative majority is in complete control. They will nuke us during the chaos. You and the 90 million can definitely take the country back. The issue is, external attack, during the transition.
Kartographer: You finished a list of Old Testament warriors with the quote, “Better a death as those of Masadah than those of Dachau.” Again, Gun slinging Americana with all it’s boldness is not Christianity. Rebelling against authorities is rebellion against God per Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2:13. Read what I wrote about armed revolt to Gilbo_3. You can win, no question. But Russia/China can take us out during the chaos of your certain victory.
95B30: You asked “So you will just knuckle under to the regime?” and my response is, I am working for Christian revival, which is the only true solution to tyranny. The whole reason the Leftists lie, kill babies, need felons to vote for them, are lazy, etc... is they don’t fear God. Plenty of Christian revivals have happened. Why not now? Your guns are as useless against tyranny as the spears and arrows of Israel’s soldiers against Babylon.
Clump : Perhaps if the British soldiers of the Revolutionary War acted like the honor-less lawless animals they were portrayed as in the movie “The Patriot”, that would remove any sin from fighting against them. I don’t know. What I do know is that this is the 21st century, and the last thing Russia/China would want, is for their plants/stooges to be deposed by armed revolt by this countries conservative majority. It would mean they would be under us decisively for the next 60+ years. They would be FOOLS to allow that to happen, and not take advantage of the chaos, and finish us off. They are not fools. You can live under tyranny. Or you can work for Christian revival. But trusting your guns, more than God’s way, will mean the end of this country.
Eagle Eye : Every translation of Romans 13 I read at http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013&version=NLT makes it clear that GOVERNMENT is who we are to submit to. Even if that was not the case, you still need to show how 1 Peter 2:13 and Matthew 22:21 don’t compel our submission to government.
OneWingedShark : You asked, “Does that absolve you, as a man [I’m assuming], from your duty to [protect] your family? If so, why?” I protect my loved ones by working for Christian revival, just as this country has had many times in it’s history. Not impossible. Revival means the end of sin in the church, and postponement of judgment. You also said, “But the violence that will happen when the government collapses will be random.” I’m not saying not to defend against randoms. What I am saying is, armed revolt against the government will invite China/Russia to attack decisively during the chaos. The bible verse I cited as reminiscent of what you are saying is, “So these officials went to the king and said, “Sir, this man must die! That kind of talk will undermine the morale of the few fighting men we have left, as well as that of all the people. This man is a traitor!” and it is Jeremiah 38:4 where Jeremiah is being castigated for Jeremiah 38:3. You are echoing the protests of the people of Israel that wanted to take up arms, rather than repent and serve the Babylonians. Classic mistake you are making wanting to fight when you should repent to God and serve who God has placed over you.
The order is:
1) armed revolt (90 million patriots vs. 3 million government soldiers/agents )
2) patriots win
3) chaos
4) China/Russia attack
It’s the perfect time for China/Russia/NorthKoreato wipe us out.
The sin and faithlessness among Christians has made the Leftists bold and evil. But God’s judgment now is the same as it is was back in Old Testament days: A result of the sin of believers, not heathen.
“If MY PEOPLE, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”
2 Chronicles 7:14
It’s up to Christians. Not the heathen.
Are you Christians or heathen? If you are heathen, pardon me for wasting your time, though it should be plain to all of you that the chaos of your revolt will INVITE China/Russia to attack.
What’s the plan for handling China/Russia in the hours of transition from Obama to you? If you don’t have that worked out, then armed revolt is not wise.
A rebellion against a Godless government I believe is not only permitted, but required by all believers. I remind you that the Maccabees led a rebellion against an idol worshiping government and reestablished and ruled a free Jewish state, the first for four and a half centuries. Your fear of Russia and China shows the weakness of your faith. I have the faith that God will give us the strength and the power to defeat all our enemies if we have faith and STAND. Every time Israel has been reborn GOD has required the faithful to STAND and shed their blood to make it happen. In 1948 after suffering great atrocities and suffering GOD only allowed the Jewish people to restore the nation of Israel through strenght of arms. They did this in rebelion against the British who ruled Palestine at the time. It was through their courage and willingness to FIGHT that the nation of Israel was reborn. Did they pray for God to help them in their fight yes, but God still required them to STAND. The Jews at the time stood a beat and scattered people. They faced odds that to every military thinking man of the day seem impossible. They were not only surrounded by their enemies, but their enemies lived among them. The enemies had trained and equiped standing armies and out number them 5 to 1 and yet they prevailed. I have the faith that if our cause is just that God will aid us no matter who or how many the enemy if we but STAND. The nation of Israel was reborn from the spirit of Masadah not he suffering Dachau.
Bow if you will to a ungodly government, but as for me I will stand.
“But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
“However, you’re forgetting that the last thing Russia/China will want/allow is a country where the conservative majority is in complete control. They will nuke us during the chaos. You and the 90 million can definitely take the country back. The issue is, external attack, during the transition.”
China has no reason to attack us. They would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. I have lived in Asia, and done business with the Chinese. They have no such intentions. What would be their motive?
Do you think the military would not use nukes to defend against an agression by China or Russia? Do you think they would defer to a wannabe, third rate fascist dictator(OBAMA) whom they now know despises the country he is leading? Do you think that in this day and age, the military, CIA, et al, has no contingency plan if, at some moment, the POTUS goes “bonkers” ?
I am no expert in biblical exegesis, but do you believe God would wnt us to be ruled by Godless, evil, murderous men? Find me a passage that would indicate same.
This is a great thread, by the way.
ROTB, you are forgetting something about this country.
It was founded on the idea that We the People are the legitimate source of the power of governance; that is to say that ultimately the Government answers to the people in the US.
While there is considerable evidence for submitting to authorities, and I am not arguing that there is not, there is considerable evidence that [in the US] the people have the right to take up arms against a corrupt or ineffective government. {The Declaration of Independence.}
You didn’t answer my citing of Esther, wherein the law allowed them to defend themselves from the people who were [legally] attacking them. {And God used that to destroy some of their enemies.} (In other words: How is the situation in Esther morally or legally different then the situation in America.)
I would like to note that “turn the other cheek” in NOT the same as “take it in the ass.” Yes, we Christians are to pray for those that hurt us; we are to be forgiving (as we were forgiven). In short, we are to become like Jesus.. but Jesus was NOT ‘weak,’ nor was he always non-violent: He took a scourge and [forcibly] drove the money-changers out of the temple. He did this in zealousness for God’s temple. As Christians, we believe that God’s temple is our own bodies; how then is the “health-care reform,” wherein the government evaluates and deals based on one’s body, any different then the money-changers?