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The Unenviable Catholic Conservative
Fightin Words ^ | December 16, 2009 | Walter Scott Hudson

Posted on 12/16/2009 4:20:00 AM PST by Walter Scott Hudson

As an authoritarian institution positioned as intermediary between man and God, the Catholic Church shares a defining characteristic with the state. Governments likewise act as intermediaries, intervening in the affairs of citizens to correct injustice. The Catholic Church is a form of ecclesiastical government which has at times been incestuously entangled with civil states or served as the state outright. So it should be no surprise to see Catholic doctrine supporting state intervention and centralized power. The question for conservative and libertarian Catholics becomes; is the Church infallible?

The Church has a vested interest in supporting the ideas advanced by President Barrack Obama in his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech last week. “We do not have to think that human nature is perfect for us to still believe that the human condition can be perfected.” This quote was delivered in the context of advocating “evolved human institutions” to promote peace. It implies imperfect humanity can somehow manifest institutions capable of perfected results. If that is so, such institutions must be pursued, empowered, and supported. Clearly, the Catholic Church would derive an existential benefit from such a mandate. The alternative view, that humanity’s imperfection precludes the possibility of substantial evolution, to say nothing of perfected conditions, endangers institutions like the Catholic Church, the United Nations, and any oligarchy regarding itself separate and superior to the unwashed masses of humanity.

What say you Catholics? How would you answer Clark’s “equivalent alternative solutions” challenge? Do you agree with Pope Benedict’s comments regarding environmental responsibility? How do you reconcile your political beliefs with your religious ones?

(Excerpt) Read more at fightinwordsusa.wordpress.com ...


TOPICS: Government; Politics; Religion
KEYWORDS: catholic; environmentalism; pope; socialism

1 posted on 12/16/2009 4:20:01 AM PST by Walter Scott Hudson
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To: Walter Scott Hudson

I think the interpretation here is a little askew particularly
in regard to the word “perfected.” Nobody and nothing is “perfect” except God. But all can strive toward perfection, and should. Remember Christ said “Be perfect as my heavenly father is perfect.”

Secondly, the pope is only considered infallible on matters of dogma. The environment is not dogma. The Church allows the Pope and I to have differing views on that. Generally speaking, it’s not good form to speak out against the Pope. But he’s only a man, he’s not God, we don’t worship the Pope.

Personally, I have my doubts as to whether to “overfishing” is really causing people in the poorer countries to go without food, as one poster was arguing in a thread yesterday. I live in Pittsburgh, where the rivers were polluted for generations because of the steel mills. Now that the steel mills have been closed for 25 years, the fish are starting to come back. But our economy is in the toilet, no matter what Obama says.

I don’t think Benedict is advocating government intrusion. I think he’s saying all of us in the more civilized nations — that is those with STABLE organized governments (not entirely a bad thing) should be concerned with those who live elsewhere and the problems they experience in their environments. Like I said, I’m not convinced there’s anything much we can do except be aware of the potential for problems. And that seems reasonable enough for me.

Hope this makes sense. I’ve been up all night.


2 posted on 12/16/2009 4:40:02 AM PST by malkee (Actually I'm an ex-smoker--more than three years now -- But I think about it every day.)
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To: Walter Scott Hudson

I think the interpretation here is a little askew particularly
in regard to the word “perfected.” Nobody and nothing is “perfect” except God. But all can strive toward perfection, and should. Remember Christ said “Be perfect as my heavenly father is perfect.”

Secondly, the pope is only considered infallible on matters of dogma. The environment is not dogma. The Church allows the Pope and I to have differing views on that. Generally speaking, it’s not good form to speak out against the Pope. But he’s only a man, he’s not God, we don’t worship the Pope.

Personally, I have my doubts as to whether to “overfishing” is really causing people in the poorer countries to go without food, as one poster was arguing in a thread yesterday. I live in Pittsburgh, where the rivers were polluted for generations because of the steel mills. Now that the steel mills have been closed for 25 years, the fish are starting to come back. But our economy is in the toilet, no matter what Obama says.

I don’t think Benedict is advocating government intrusion. I think he’s saying all of us in the more civilized nations — that is those with STABLE organized governments (not entirely a bad thing) should be concerned with those who live elsewhere and the problems they experience in their environments. Like I said, I’m not convinced there’s anything much we can do except be aware of the potential for problems. And that seems reasonable enough for me.

Hope this makes sense. I’ve been up all night.


3 posted on 12/16/2009 4:41:08 AM PST by malkee (Actually I'm an ex-smoker--more than three years now -- But I think about it every day.)
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To: Walter Scott Hudson; Arthur McGowan
Liberal commentator Jack Clark, host of a podcast called Blast The Right, advances a challenge to conservative Christians to reconcile their political views with the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 25, which mandates Christians to care for “the least of these [Christ's] brethren” (i.e. the poor).

A key distinction is what we do individually and what we do as a society. The constant drumbeat of "Social Justice" I hear from leftists in my Catholic parish is always in support of government action to help the poor and disadvantaged. Such calls have the effect of releasing the individual from their duty to help in favor of collective action. This is wrong from a practical standpoint (private charity is much more effective) and also diminishes acts of charity by making them compulsory (I help the poor because I pay my taxes).

The criticism that the Catholic Church often supports Big Government has a good measure of truth. But the Church itself is made up of fallible men, as has always been the case. It's not surprising then that even the Pope would mistakenly support a global prosperity killer (Copenhagen) while trying to make still valid points about conservation, gluttony, and helping the poor. Personally I focus on messages to the individual and tune out those concerning government.

4 posted on 12/16/2009 4:59:32 AM PST by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: Walter Scott Hudson
What a nonsensical set of questions!
The idea that the Pope's endorsement of cleanliness and peace is some “infallible” endorsement of Obama policies, is NUTS!

Environmental responsibility DOES NOT mean passing some asinine cap ‘n trade bill, that serves only to wreck American Industry, the American economy, and redistributing wealth to the 3rd world.

Neither does the pursuit of peace mean that we're obligated to let tyrants run rampant in the world!

5 posted on 12/16/2009 5:04:49 AM PST by G Larry (DNC is comprised of REGRESSIVES!)
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To: Walter Scott Hudson

The Church is only infallible in matters of faith.

The teaching office

888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task “to preach the Gospel of God to all men,” in keeping with the Lord’s command.415 They are “heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers” of the apostolic faith “endowed with the authority of Christ.”416

889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, “unfailingly adheres to this faith.”417

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,”419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.”420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent”422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p4.htm#I


6 posted on 12/16/2009 5:07:21 AM PST by Ge0ffrey
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To: Walter Scott Hudson
As an authoritarian institution positioned as intermediary between man and God

As Petronski would say, "Thank God you're not describing the Catholic Church".

The Church has a vested interest in supporting the ideas advanced by President Barrack Obama in his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech last week. “We do not have to think that human nature is perfect for us to still believe that the human condition can be perfected.”

A concept which is complete nonsense, utter hash, in the light of Catholic doctrine.

The only way for "the human condition" to be "perfected" is through the grace of God given us by Jesus Christ. "Perfection" lies in and through the Cross, not through some sort of multinational organization.

It does not follow from that that nothing should be done, however.

This quote was delivered in the context of advocating “evolved human institutions” to promote peace. It implies imperfect humanity can somehow manifest institutions capable of perfected results.

Again, a concept diametrically opposed to Catholic dogma.

This is just one more screed alleging that Catholics cannot be conservatives and still be Catholics. It differs little from the Know-Nothing line in the 1840's, that Catholics can't be "real Americans". I'm sure Barack Obama is delighted by any effort made to sow division between Catholic conservatives and the rest of the conservative movement. It is, after all, a favorite tactic of his infernal father.

7 posted on 12/16/2009 5:26:37 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Petronski

Sorry, meant to ping you to the preceding because you’re mentioned.


8 posted on 12/16/2009 5:27:14 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Walter Scott Hudson
As an authoritarian institution positioned as intermediary between man and God, the Catholic Church...

Wow. What a steaming pantload.

9 posted on 12/16/2009 6:26:09 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: malkee

It does make sense. And I hope your interpretation is accurate.


10 posted on 12/16/2009 11:03:15 AM PST by Walter Scott Hudson (fightinwords.us)
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To: G Larry

I agree with you on principle, which is why I find the timing of the pope’s comments suspect. At the very least, he should have clarified what he did not mean, considering what he knows full well is going on in Copenhagen.


11 posted on 12/16/2009 11:06:00 AM PST by Walter Scott Hudson (fightinwords.us)
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To: Ge0ffrey

Fair enough. But don’t matters of faith compel action to affect public policy?


12 posted on 12/16/2009 11:07:15 AM PST by Walter Scott Hudson (fightinwords.us)
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To: Campion

You misread me, which is my fault. My purpose is not to sow division, but appeal for reconciliation. I’m asking, “What does you’re guy mean?” You’re telling me he does not mean what it appears he means, which is great if true.


13 posted on 12/16/2009 11:10:37 AM PST by Walter Scott Hudson (fightinwords.us)
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To: Walter Scott Hudson

I’m glad, and I think it is. I have always maintained that Christians in general don’t hold with the global warming crap because we believe in God, who is bigger than man or the environment. As long as He wants us around, we’ll be here. And the same goes for the fish. (That was my point w/the fish coming back to the rivers.) But I suppose we could be wrong about man’s effect on the environment. At the very least, the Pope’s statement is allowing us to ponder these questions, which isn’t a bad thing.


14 posted on 12/16/2009 3:26:08 PM PST by malkee (Actually I'm an ex-smoker--more than three years now -- But I think about it every day.)
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