Replies

"Actually the side oiler was a standard wet sump design, the term referred to the enhanced block casting which incorporated a long high volume oil gallery running the length of the block which fed the main bearings first, and the camshaft, lifters, rockers, etc., second. (the original design was called a 'top oiler', the oil flowed from the pump to the top of the engine, then made it's way down to the crankcase)."

Unreal, would you believe you're the FIRST person, Ford guy or otherwise who satisfactorily explained WTH all the Ford jargon meant insofar as the legendary 427 goes??
It's true, mk.
It ain't so much I been living a lie, but I STH been believing one LOL!!
Fascinating, beyond words.

So tell me, you a Mechanical Engineer by any chance? Your in-depth knowledge/insight of the nuts & bolts, ability to explain in lay terms what all this historical Ford stuff meant is nothing short of remarkable

If you're not a MW, work in the field in some capacity? It'd shock TS outa me. You STH could've easily written tech docs for anything I designed any time, better than I ever did! ;^)

"Of course all 427s had what was known as 'cross bolted mains', the three center main bearing caps bolted to the block with two vertical bolts going from the bottom of the main caps up into the block casting, with two more bolts, coming through the SIDE of the block casting (just above the pan rail) screwing into the side of the main caps, it was virtually bulletproof, it tied the block casting together into practically one unit and the only limiting factor was the structural integrity of the crank, rods and pistons (and oiling, which is why they moved to the side oiler adaptation)."

That, is simply amazing. The crank had to be held stiffer than a two peckered billy-goat in such a fashion. Honestly, you've given me totally new insights into what the Ford engineers tried accomplishing, as such I have gained a new respect for Ford I never in my life had.

>We saw nuthin' said it all. LOL!!
"Hank Williams Jr & Ray Charles 'I didn't see you, you didn't see me, and we didn't see a thing!'"

HA!!
Knew someone had to have had the shtick down before me, that it'd have been HWJr & RC doesn't surprise me. I feel as though my thoughts were in good company even if a few decades late. LOL!

>Lemme guess, NAZZZZZZCAR wouldn't allow it.
"You got it"

Figures, proves the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, eh? Only difference between Sr & his offspring brat is the snot nose. And now they're standing around wringing their hands wondering "WTF happened" as ratings, interest & popularity tanks. ~sigh~ Welcome to the future.

>So tell me, Ford's 429 was also a hemispherical head design, did compete in NASCAR and really gave MOPAR's --Plymouth or Dodge-- Hemis all they could handle. Of course by then GM had withdrawn from participation, IIRC.
"The Boss 429 Mustang (in full Holman Moody race trim) was arguably the most powerful NASCAR vehicle ever built."

OK, so how many of these H/M cars were really made? Are you saying all the "429 Boss'" built weren't of the same pedigree? Would explain why the guy up the road with the survivor Boss 429 wanted nothing to do with me, if that'd be the case.

"Unfortunately Ford pulled out of NASCAR after the '69 season..."

Is that move what was behind Richard Petty leaving Ford the one & only season he switched? Those early years for me are fuzzy.

...so full development of the 429 potential was never realized. But don't let anyone compare the 'race' version with the tuned-down 'street' version, it's like the difference between a .22 auto and a .44 auto mag"

Really?
The next door kid, "Gordy", the guy whose parents had the Torinio 390? His folks also had a '69 LTD and it had a 429. Was only a 2bbl. Still, I'd always wondered why the car didn't perform better given the displacement.

In fact when the car was only 3 months old, *Gordy* would put the thing in Neutral on 124th Street, let'er roll down the hill backwards & then slam it in Drive. We'd watch the tires smoooooooke. Thought it sooooo cool.
'Til one day his old man, "Virgil", LOOKED at <2K bald tires!!
I was there, Virg slapped Gordy in the head so hard it sounded like someone socking a watermelon
BWWWWWWHAAAA!! ~Another story for another time. LOL!!

>Not to bash the kid, but he was different so who can say WTH he did to the motor besides the obligatory cam, lifter/spring package, over-sized carb & the obligatory Cherry Bombs.
"One of the basic mistakes any kid makes in hopping up an engine (and I learned the hard way) was to put in too much cam, and not enough gear in the axle. Longer duration valve timing bumps the engine's power producing peak to higher rpms (which is what you want in a performance motor) but you end up with a corresponding drop in torque (which is what wins your street light competitions, lol). And unless the cam'd up engine also receives a decent set of headers and dual exhaust, it's going to end up choked."

Bingo, my friend.
Your analysis sounds frightfully similar to how that car performed. It *should've* been hell on wheels, but wasn't. The strange --albeit well meaning-- kid who built it simply didn't understand the big picture as you've described. Osmond...& I *ain't* talkin' 'bout Donny. LOL

"And then there is always the error of putting more carb on the engine than it can take, the Holley 780 was probably the best all around carburetor ever made..."

Have one on my '80 L48 Vette, it is a great all-round carb. Too bad I don't drive it much anymore, she just sits in the 3rd bay. Pity.

"...but a properly tweaked and jetted Holley 600 would produce more horsepower (and vacuum secondaries were the way to go, not with mechanical linkage and all that 'double-pumper' nonsense."

Who at 16 would've thought that? Back then more was better. Now my other pal, "Hog Knees'", his '60 L-88 427 had a 950 double pumper. But that gas guzzling sow really needed the fuel.
~Not a 390.

>Here's what I can remember...the thing could barely wind to 5K! Struggled, seemed --to ME-- like something was holding the whole shittin' caboodle back. Does *that* description sound familiar?
"Sounds like too much cam, not enough exhaust or the cam could have been installed a degree or two retarded which will DEFINITELY affect overall power output."

May sound like [that] to you, but it sounds like Osmond to me. LOL!! The kid meant well, just no clue. Wonder what # DUI he's working on. LOL!!

>Now the other neighbor kid adjacent to our house, his folks bought a then new '69 Torino GT 390 with a 3 Hurst (IIRC) speed manual. "Gordy's" claim to fame was *speed shifting*, primarily because most of us had autos and wouldn't have gone far if it meant we had to work a clutch.
"Well a 4 speed (or even 3 speed) and clutch is great but for consistent bracket racing performance, an automatic with a proper high stall torque converter, manual valve body, etc., is pretty hard to beat and you CAN drive it on the street if you don't mind the harsh shifts."

We know that NOW, but back then an auto was for old geezers!! THAT was before the old man brought home the Dart 340 w/ a 727 Torqueflite. Wow. I saw the light with that tranny. Tight as hell. Annnnnnnd *I* couldn't break it even when I tried. LOL!!

>But even his stock 390 4bbl, which I'll guess was the 325HP version, wasn't all that swift.
"That 390/325 was a good solid motor but it wasn't much different than the run of the mill 390-4bbl that you would find in any number of LTDs, Country Squire & Sedan station wagons, etc. The 390 from the factory (by the end of the 60's) needed some work to deliver any kind of really decent street performance."

That'd explain it.
In the day all we were concerned with was cu in.

>Obviously the people I ran with simply didn't know WTH they were doing, that is all 2 of 'em and one's car was his folk's. LOL
"Sometime I'll tell you about this friend of mine who tried to turn his Dad's 4 door Oldsmobile into a 'race car'..."

Can't wait! LOL!!

>Like the 383 *or* 396 FTM, I'd always had a healthy respect if only because they had the cubic inches over my paltry small block 340...
"The old saying 'there is no substitute for cubic inches' remains true, however it is more important to have a favorable weight-to-horsepower ratio and you certainly had that in spades, I would gather."

Well that, & I hung with nincompoops driving "Pa's" car. LOL

>Was sad then & still sad in memory. Y'know?
"I do indeed know. One of my Galaxies (I've owned a few) was one strong runnin' SOB, but I didn't know that the previous owner had bored out the 390 a full .125 and had to put a sleeve in one of the cylinders. (The maximum a block should be overbored is .060) Anyway, I was driving one of many girlfriends through the Virginia countryside one afternoon and that sleeve let go not far from Tyson's Corner, and I had to call up a wrecker service to tow it home, that was a sad way to return home although the girlfriend was very sympathetic (but not THAT sympathetic dammit lol)."

BWWWWWWHAAAAAAA!!!
Oh I understand the code words just fine.
You po' thing. LOL!!
Really, least she could've done was comfort a fella whose car had just fragged. Women are so cruel. LOL

>To the best of my memory he sold it for scrap, or his old man did after getting sick of seeing it sitting. Ouch.
"That's almost always the way it is, you never get out of a car what you put into it, I've only had that happen to me ONE time in my life, and that is a hilarious story I'll save for another time."

I got you on record, pal!!
You WILL tell that tale, y'hear? LOL!! ;^)

>Awfully cute kid, mk.
"I'm still trying to figure out where that kid ran off to, I keep thinking about that bumper sticker that says 'inside every 50-something man, is a 19 year old kid screaming 'WTF HAPPENED?!??!?'"

BWWWWWHAAAAAAAA!!!
For sure, man.
This growin' old crap STH ain't for sissies, like the old dame said.
Still, we got some fabulous memories & I for one wouldn't trade for anything for 'em. Honest. We laughed often and a lot and it didn't require any kind substance, whatsoever. Just *life*.

>Explains your good bride buying you that model car...
"Well so far so good, she wanted to get a 2009 Dodge Challenger and I found myself arguing AGAINST it (what was I SAYING?!?), in favor of a low mileage Chrysler 300 (the older style before they went to the new 'box' design), I guess that makes me officially an OFBTW (Old Fart Behind The Wheel)"

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat????
You passed on an opportunity she who must be obeyed suggested???? OMG...
Now don'tcha think that's taking this "conservative" jazz a tad too far? LOL

"Have a great evening Brother Landru, I may be a bit tied up for a while, trouble shooting a neighbor's computer and proving again that "no good deed goes unpunished", Later!"

Happy trails, my friend.
Ain no other place I be.
C'ya when you're finish gettin' abused. ;^)

(yawn) 6:00 Eastern, I cannot believe I've been wrestling with this freakin' system all night except for about an hour's nap (groan)...

Unreal, would you believe you're the FIRST person, Ford guy or otherwise who satisfactorily explained WTH all the Ford jargon meant insofar as the legendary 427 goes?? It's true, mk. It ain't so much I been living a lie, but I STH been believing one LOL!! Fascinating, beyond words.

Wow. I'm kinda surprised and honored, the Ford approach to high performance has never been a secret although a lot o' folks used to (and still do) hear or utter that infamous 'F-ound O-n R-oad D-ead' mantra and let it go at that, lol (I always countered that with 'F-irst O-n R-ace D-ay' and/or 'F-inest O-pportunity to 'R-ide D-ecently' ;)

So tell me, you a Mechanical Engineer by any chance? Your in-depth knowledge/insight of the nuts & bolts, ability to explain in lay terms what all this historical Ford stuff meant is nothing short of remarkable.

You again honor me, and I thank you. I am unfortunately not an M.E., just had a lifetime fascination with how things go together and how to tweak 'em, lol

If you're not a ME, work in the field in some capacity? It'd shock TS outa me. You STH could've easily written tech docs for anything I designed any time, better than I ever did! ;^)

Bullseye! One of my many incarnations in the work force was a technical writer, mostly in the computer support field, I never had a degree or anything, it was a case of necessity being a mother, I had to document a data center (this was pre-PC days) and was forced to start from scratch with "enter the operations room and turn on the light switch" lol

[regarding 427 'cross bolting']
That, is simply amazing. The crank had to be held stiffer than a two peckered billy-goat in such a fashion. Honestly, you've given me totally new insights into what the Ford engineers tried accomplishing, as such I have gained a new respect for Ford I never in my life had.

LMAO, I never saw a two peckered billy-goat until after the election of '92 when that hyper-libido'd Emperor Billigula started sliming up the Oval Office, what an SOB he was.

I've always liked Ford's kinda (not always) direct approach, the one thing that gained my admiration was their putting the distributor in the FRONT of the engine, instead of the back like GM (Chrysler was similar with front placement although they tilted the distributor on some of their engines (383?), lol

We saw nuthin' said it all. LOL!!
"Hank Williams Jr & Ray Charles 'I didn't see you, you didn't see me, and we didn't see a thing!'"
HA!!
Knew someone had to have had the shtick down before me, that it'd have been HWJr & RC doesn't surprise me. I feel as though my thoughts were in good company even if a few decades late. LOL!

Speaking of, if perchance you've not seen that movie about the life of Ray Charles, 'Ray' with Jamie Fox, it is time well spent, the scene where Ray Charles is in the recording studio for the first take of 'Mess Around' is not only hilarious, it is one fantastic tune, a great 'road' tune!

Lemme guess, NAZZZZZZCAR wouldn't allow it.
"You got it"
Figures, proves the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, eh? Only difference between Sr & his offspring brat is the snot nose. And now they're standing around wringing their hands wondering "WTF happened" as ratings, interest & popularity tanks. ~sigh~ Welcome to the future.

IMHO, the most stupid thing NASCAR ever did was to introduce carburetor restrictor plates. And among the greatest racers, mechanics and crew chiefs of all, was Henry 'Smokey' Yunick, I actually visited his 'Best Damn Garage in Town' in Daytona (this was in the last couple of years before he closed it in '87) and one thing I burned into my memory was something he said about when a driver is headed for an accident, i.e. (paraphrasing now) "when a driver sits back in the seat with his arms extended TO the wheel, and is comfortable, he's not going to wreck. But when he starts leaning forward, getting up on the wheel, tensing up, the clock is ticking on him" and I believe (not sure now) that he said that about the famous Fireball Roberts (Yunick was his crew chief, put him 'on the pole' THREE times), before Roberts crashed and died in '64.

But as they say 'alas I digress', lol

OK, so how many of these H/M cars were really made? Are you saying all the "429 Boss'" built weren't of the same pedigree? Would explain why the guy up the road with the survivor Boss 429 wanted nothing to do with me, if that'd be the case.

I'm not exactly sure how many H/M cars were built, I know that the total number of Boss 429 Mustangs was 1358, with NASCAR requiring that 500 of them be sold to the public to qualify them for the racing circuit, so I'd go out on a limb and say that Holman Moody probably worked over MOST of them, as they were the official Ford go-to guys for NASCAR, their famous 'Competition Proven' logo was said to be worth at least an extra 10 horsepower if you had one on your car, LOL

"Unfortunately Ford pulled out of NASCAR after the '69 season..."
Is that move what was behind Richard Petty leaving Ford the one & only season he switched? Those early years for me are fuzzy.

Actually Petty switched to Ford for that '69 season because Chrysler refused to give him a more aerodynamic Dodge Charger for NASCAR, wanted to keep him in the Belvedere/Road Runner body which had all the aerodynamics of a brick. Petty announced that he would accept Ford's offer to race their new Torino instead, and pissed off everyone in both Chrysler AND Ford camps, lol (part of that might have been that the Petty team basically had nothing to do with Holman Moody, which was kinda like the Israelites deciding to head for the Promised Land but leaving Moses behind with the Egyptians.

But don't let anyone compare the 'race' version with the tuned-down 'street' version, it's like the difference between a .22 auto and a .44 auto mag"
Really? The next door kid, "Gordy", the guy whose parents had the Torinio 390? His folks also had a '69 LTD and it had a 429. Was only a 2bbl. Still, I'd always wondered why the car didn't perform better given the displacement.

The Boss 429 for the street had a hydraulic cam, single 4-bbl carburetor, it was 'corked up' at the factory most likely (again, IMHO) to prevent any rich kids from wrapping themselves around telephone poles and bringing down the wrath of the already hostile insurance companies regarding performance cars. That's just my take on it. The 429 was actually a de-stroked 460 Lincoln engine (known as the '385' series due to the crank stroke of 3.85 inches), the 429 had a stroke of 3.59 which made it capable of high revs and the rocker arms were independently mounted, unlike the shaft configuration of the 390-427-428 'FE' series.

' In fact when the car was only 3 months old, *Gordy* would put the thing in Neutral on 124th Street, let'er roll down the hill backwards & then slam it in Drive. We'd watch the tires smoooooooke. Thought it sooooo cool. 'Til one day his old man, "Virgil", LOOKED at <2K bald tires!! I was there, Virg slapped Gordy in the head so hard it sounded like someone socking a watermelon BWWWWWWHAAAA!! ~Another story for another time. LOL!!

"Never mess with a man named Virgil" - Virgil 'Gus' Grissom. lol

Bingo, my friend.
Your analysis sounds frightfully similar to how that car performed. It *should've* been hell on wheels, but wasn't. The strange --albeit well meaning-- kid who built it simply didn't understand the big picture as you've described. Osmond...& I *ain't* talkin' 'bout Donny. LOL

Donny got a bad rap I think, but I could picture Marie in a NASCAR jump suit, Whoo hooo! lol

... the Holley 780 was probably the best all around carburetor ever made..."
Have one on my '80 L48 Vette, it is a great all-round carb. Too bad I don't drive it much anymore, she just sits in the 3rd bay. Pity.

If you don't have one, I think you can still get the larger 50cc 'Reo' accelerator pump kit (factory Holley accelerator pump is only 30cc) with all sorts of little plastic 'cams' for the throttle shaft to allow you to adjust exactly 'when' the squirt hits the venturis, lol

"...but a properly tweaked and jetted Holley 600 would produce more horsepower (and vacuum secondaries were the way to go, not with mechanical linkage and all that 'double-pumper' nonsense."
Who at 16 would've thought that? Back then more was better. Now my other pal, "Hog Knees'", his '60 L-88 427 had a 950 double pumper. But that gas guzzling sow really needed the fuel.

Oh I would say so. I was always fascinated with the Holley 950 and 1050 cfm "3-barrel" carbs, instead of two rear secondaries, Holley just incorporated a great big flapper valve that flowed air and fuel like a fire hose, I finally picked up a 950 3-bbl about 10 years ago, and then never used it, dammit. Paid $200 for it from a guy advertising in Hemmings Motor News, had to sell it for $100 when money was a little tight, "that's the way it goes", lol

We know that NOW, but back then an auto was for old geezers!! THAT was before the old man brought home the Dart 340 w/ a 727 Torqueflite. Wow. I saw the light with that tranny. Tight as hell. Annnnnnnd *I* couldn't break it even when I tried. LOL!!

In my book, there were (and remain) three superior automatic trannys, the Chrysler Torqueflite, the Ford C-6 and the GM Turbo-Hydro 400, in that order. IMHO, those 3 transmissions will never be truly surpassed. (and in the 2-speed category, highly honorable mention for the GM PowerGlide, lol)

But even his stock 390 4bbl, which I'll guess was the 325HP version, wasn't all that swift.
"That 390/325 was a good solid motor but it wasn't much different than the run of the mill 390-4bbl that you would find in any number of LTDs, Country Squire & Sedan station wagons, etc. The 390 from the factory (by the end of the 60's) needed some work to deliver any kind of really decent street performance."
That'd explain it.
In the day all we were concerned with was cu in.

I was always a fiend for stroker kits, and for someone who did NOT have the budget for high dollar billet cranks and all that fancy stuff, there was always the tried and true "Speed-O-Motive" and they're still in business today!

http://www.speedomotive.com

"Sometime I'll tell you about this friend of mine who tried to turn his Dad's 4 door Oldsmobile into a 'race car'..."
Can't wait! LOL!!

I'll have to go dust off some dormant neurons and try to reconstruct that train wreck, lol

That's almost always the way it is, you never get out of a car what you put into it, I've only had that happen to me ONE time in my life, and that is a hilarious story I'll save for another time."
I got you on record, pal!!
You WILL tell that tale, y'hear? LOL!! ;^)

Oh I can tell that one right now. I was working for a government contractor in suburban Maryland and one of the computer engineers was driving a '71 Vega that literally died one morning on his way to work and he coasted into the parking lot from U.S. 29, I think if he had been armed, he would have shot the car to put it out of it's misery, lol - anyway, I had just that previous weekend picked up a '69 Mercury Marquis (with one of them notorious 429 2-bbls) for $100 bucks as a go-to-work/grocery-getter car. This guy (Chris) stood out a bit anyway, as he was into ballroom dancing and would kill two birds with one stone by wearing some of his dancing suits as business suits to work, a real stylish type in that Vega, heh-heh, ANYway, Chris asked me if I would sell him that car (and he had no idea what I paid for it), that he HAD to have a car and quick and had figured I wouldn't buy a car that wasn't reliable, and what did I want for it?

So off the top of my head, I said "$1200 bucks!" and he said "SOLD!" and proceeded to start pulling 100-dollar bills out of his wallet like some dancin' version of Monty Hall, and before I could say "wait a minute!" he said "you got a title?" I said "yeah, in the glovebox" and he said "let's go get it", and we proceeded to conclude the transaction right there in the parking lot, and he drove that damn Mercury for more than a year before he traded it in on something, I had a grand total of $100 invested plus tag and title and I was shaking my head. Fortunately for me, I was just about to ready to pull one Galaxie out of drydock and return it to service and that $1100 profit made that possible. And that was the ONLY time I sold a car and actually came out ahead. That won't happen again until Jesus comes back, I suspect.

Awfully cute kid, mk.
"I'm still trying to figure out where that kid ran off to, I keep thinking about that bumper sticker that says 'inside every 50-something man, is a 19 year old kid screaming 'WTF HAPPENED?!??!?'"
BWWWWWHAAAAAAAA!!!
For sure, man.
This growin' old crap STH ain't for sissies, like the old dame said.
Still, we got some fabulous memories & I for one wouldn't trade for anything for 'em. Honest. We laughed often and a lot and it didn't require any kind substance, whatsoever. Just *life*.

Right you are Brother, but getting old still sucks. I discover more aches and pains all the time but better to have the aches and pains than to wake up with a tag on your toe, lol

Explains your good bride buying you that model car...
"Well so far so good, she wanted to get a 2009 Dodge Challenger and I found myself arguing AGAINST it (what was I SAYING?!?), in favor of a low mileage Chrysler 300 (the older style before they went to the new 'box' design), I guess that makes me officially an OFBTW (Old Fart Behind The Wheel)"
Whaaaaaaaaaaaat???? You passed on an opportunity she who must be obeyed suggested???? OMG...
Now don'tcha think that's taking this "conservative" jazz a tad too far? LOL

No, it means that I'm helping to guarantee that SHE will be around long enough to take care of me in my old age instead of getting too enthusiastic with the go-pedal in that Challenger, lol

"Have a great evening Brother Landru, I may be a bit tied up for a while, trouble shooting a neighbor's computer and proving again that "no good deed goes unpunished", Later!"
Happy trails, my friend.
Ain no other place I be.
C'ya when you're finish gettin' abused. ;^)

Oh the abuse is just getting started. I arranged for this neighbor of mine to pick up a new PC from our local computer outlet, and I foolishly volunteered to transfer his data from his old Windows 98 (stop laughing dammit) system to an XP system, and it should NOT be this complex, I'm encountering XP-setup fatal errors stating that it can't "write to memory" and I'm beginning to think that it's the onboard VGA function on the motherboard that allocates main memory for the graphics, and then Setup comes along and can't find the memory it needs to complete installation but I'll figure something out.

I think it needs a bigger carburetor and a set of headers. ;)