GM's 200 MPG+ Fantasy

Commodity News Center ^ | 9/3/09 | Adrian Veidt

[h20skier66]

A few weeks ago, Government Motors dropped a public relations bomb when new chief Fritz Henderson announced that the forthcoming Chevy Volt would get an astonishing 230 miles per gallon (that's 98 kilometers per liter, for our metric-system friends).

We'll stop short of calling it a fabrication and instead chalk it up to a classic apples-to-oranges comparison. After all, the Volt will be powered more by coal than by oil.

United States EPA mileage guidelines are based on a bunch of hypothetical “typical” driving patterns. And the makers of conventional and plug-in hybrid cars are lobbying hard to change those patterns to reflect well on the broad range of possible outcomes these funky two-mode drive trains could have, with their on-again-off-again relationship with the gas tank. And the GM announcement of 230 mpg is based on some unpublished, unverified agreement the carmaker claims to have reached with its government sibling, the EPA

However, if GM's claims prove true that operating the car off the electric grid costs about one-third of what it costs on gasoline at today's prices, it won't matter what formula the EPA uses.

[KarlInOhio]

We'll stop short of calling it a fabrication and instead chalk it up to a classic apples-to-oranges comparison. After all, the Volt will be powered more by coal than by oil.

Then just list the electric range, total power required to charge the battery in kWh and gasoline mileage on separate lines rather than combining them in order to fib about the mileage. 40 miles on an electric charge of XXXX kWh plus a 50 mpg gasoline engine is more honest than 230 mpg. You can create any mileage figure between the gasoline engine's raw efficiency and infinity just by carefully selecting the distance of the "typical" trip.

[Huskrrrr]

[mo]

Ain’t ever gonna happen...

“State and Federal Treasuries “Profit” More from Gasoline Sales than U.S. Oil Industry”

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/1139.html

[steve-b]

Converting the electric grid to nuclear or other “green” sources may be more practical than converting to another type of liquid fuel.

[GonzoGOP]

Exactly. If i used my little emergency generator to charge the battery, how many gallons of gas would I need to burn to charge them up? Electricity isn't free. Even if you are Ed Bagley Jr and use solar power to charge up your car, you still have to pay for the #%$#ing solar panels.

[Sgt_Schultze]

Back in the mid 1990's Harold and Benjamin Rosen were creating a hybrid engine that seems to show promise. Unfortunately we ran through the spat of $.84 per gallon gasoline and no manufacturer wanted to outsource their drive train.

[SJSAMPLE]

How?
What if you have to drive more than 40 miles?
Drive for 40 minutes and stop and recharge for two hours or more?

America is a BIG country.
40 miles doesn’t cut if for anything but “short” (by American standards) commutes.

Hydrogen would give us the range and refuel capabilities that more closely align with our current driving infrastructure. Electrolisys via nuclear power would be very “green”.

Electric cars are, essentially, a dead end.

[Buckeye McFrog]

It all depends on what your definition of the word “mile” is. Or “gallon” for that matter....

[Rebel_Ace]

The GM Volt is what is known as an "IN-LINE" hybrid. It is basically blocked out the same way that Diesel-Electric locomotives are run.

I hear people all the time bleating about "What if I have to go more than 40 miles?" and it is clear from their question that they do not understand the architecture of the Volt (and other IN-LINE hybrids). I will explain:

An IN-LINE Hybrid electric car has an ELECTRIC propulsion system. If the wheels are turning, it is because an ELECTRIC motor is turning them. The electric motor DOES NOT CARE where it gets its power from. The Volt has TWO power delivery systems: A big bank of batteries, and an small flex fuel ICE that turns a generator.

Now, ON THE BATTERIES ALONE, the Volt can putter around for about 40 miles (or somewhat less, would be my guess, but we will take the 40 mile range as truthful for the moment, as it is in the realm of believable numbers).

If the batteries are depleted, then the GENERATOR kicks on, the the car continues to run for literally hundreds of miles, burning gasoline or ethynol or what have you. The ACTUAL driving range on the Volt is HUNDREDS OF MILES, not just 40. The only way a Volt is going to leave you stranded would be just the same as any other car on the road today, if you forget to fill up the fuel tank.

Just as Diesel Electric Locomotives move freight for 1000's of miles, the range on the Volt is similar to other cars on the road today.

Now, due to the SIMPLICITY and EFFICIENCY of an electric motor drive, the ICE that turns the generator is FAR SMALLER THAN AN ICE THAT WOULD HAVE TO MECHANICALLY PUSH THE CAR. This is where the payback for In-Line Hybrids comes from over time.

Far from being a dead end, electric propulsion is THE FUTURE of automobiles. Now, where the power comes from to turn the electric motor is an open question at this point.

[SJSAMPLE]

I work for the largest US supplier of HYBRID motors.
We supply nearly all of GM’s hybrid drives.
I’ve worked on both the hybrid bus and SUV platforms.

I was talking about purely “electric” vehicles, not hybrids.

You post mentioned the grid, which didn’t appear to include fuels or hybrids.

I’ve been a proponent of hybrids for years, but not for consumer use. There’s a marginal group of individuals who will achieve cost or even profit from hybrid use. Military, industrial and commercial applications are where the true value lies.

Purely electric vehicles are non-starter for 99% of the applications out there. It’s doomed.

[Rebel_Ace]

The thread topic appeared to be the Chevy Volt, from the title.

The range you complained about (40 miles) is the published range for the Volt on batteries alone.

You were not explicit in limiting your complaint to "pure electrics" (by which I take to mean, battery only).

The user Steve-B mentioned the grid, not I (except in a vague sort of way saying where the power is to come from is an open question).

So, I hope you can see how a reasonable reader could draw the conclusion you were griping about the Volt (as MANY on this forum do).

Actually, the only thing retarding "purely electric" vehicles is the "battery bottleneck". With nano materials available today that did not exist 10 years ago, conventional battery plate surface areas can be increased a hundred times over. Who knows what energy storage breakthroughs will unfold? This is akin to saying that heavier than air flying machines are a dead end, because there is no way to build an engine and frame light enough. (It just took advances in other material sciences to help)

[SJSAMPLE]

Sorry.
It was Steve-B, but didn’t appear to mention the Volt, and his mention of the grid was leading more toward the pure electrics.

The 40mile range is almost standard for most the electrics being quoted. I was just watching “Top Gear” with the Tesla (a modified Lotus Elise) and that was also a 40 mile range, IIRC. SIX HOUR recharge times and seriously diminished handling, if anyone is interested. I think it even died on their test track.

Sure.
If we have a battery “breakthrough” that allows exponentially increased storage and quick charges.
Like you said, “who knows”.
Maybe “Mr. Fusion” from BTTF will be a reality?
Carbon nanotube technology appears to be the most likely evolution of the storage battery. I hope it works, but I’m not betting the farm just yet. Maybe in 10 or 15 years.

The Volt is still an expensive proposition and GM didn’t help itself by stretching for that 230mpg claim. Like the Hybrid Tahoe (which we supply), it will only survive by government mandate or buyer ignorance.

[Rebel_Ace]

In 1909, very few would have predicted reliable aircraft that could travel 1000's of miles carrying 100's of people, so I leave future breakthroughs as an open ended exercise in (fun) speculation.

"The Volt is still an expensive proposition and GM didn’t help itself by stretching for that 230mpg claim. Like the Hybrid Tahoe (which we supply), it will only survive by government mandate or buyer ignorance."

...still an expensive proposition... without a doubt!

...that 230mpg claim... I expect many consumers that buy this vehicle to utter WTF? when they drive it around for awhile!

...by government mandate or buyer ignorance. Products should sink or swim on their own merits. While it is true that new technology is often more expensive for the "Early adopters", a product that cannot be made affordable has no real future. It is also true that there are "economies of scale" that kick in when a market gets large enough. Will the Volt survive as a product? I personally doubt it. Will it introduce tech that will push the auto market in a particular direction? Maybe. I know that while I would like to have one for the "gee-whiz geek" factor, I won't be buying one at $40K plus.

[SJSAMPLE]

Poor implementations usually have a killing effect on the technology that’s expected to follow.

Experiences with the Volt could usher in a path for newer technologies, but failure could kill another generation of customer acceptance.

Just like “Remember the Alamo!” inspired the nation of Texas, “Remember the Volt?” could kill the adoption of follow-on technologies and applications. Sort of like the Hindenberg did for derigible flight.

Hell, it might even (finally) kill GM.

Personally, I’m a big fan of Fuel Cell techonology.
Well, not really for the technology (still cool) but for the logistics of it all. Hydrogen produced with nuclear power could supplant a large portion of the petrochemical base while remaining within a largely similar logistical footprint.

We still get fantastic electric drive systems, but we get better platforms. Although, I’m still worried about the THREE large compressed hydrogen tanks filling up the Equinox SUV, right where my kids would be sitting ;)

[tnlibertarian]

Well, my Taurus gets better gas mileage than that

(when it's coasting downhill with the engine turned off.)