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To: Mariner
Each and EVERY one of us should be able to hit a water mellon at 500yds, every time.

Are you kidding? To quote my favorite comedian, Jeff Foxworthy and our shared love of redneck terms: "500 yards? Well, I usetacould see that far and if you gave me a real good scope, I mightcould again!"

You're not discussing a 5.56mm round there. The max effective range on that is 460 meters, just about 500 yards and it's running out of steam and losing altitude pretty quick there. Besides, can you hit a watermelon at 500 yards, using iron sights, sitting on the grass? If you can, I'd pay money (about $1) to see that!

When I was a 1LT on active duty I was XO of the Division Pistol team. As such I got to hang around the division MTU (Marksmanship Training Unit) and speak to them quite a bit. Yes, resonance affects accuracy at those ranges and mostly beyond. But the only folks who really have to worry about that are the highly trained and specialized snipers in the military. Those reside at the division level and are doled out to units on a temporary basis based on mission requirements. At least that was the case during my service time (Cold War).

But there is more to being a sniper than long range accuracy. It's called fieldcraft It's covered very extensively on that Military Channel show about sniper school, which I'll bet is available for purchase. What you're discussing isn't the job of a sniper it's the pursuit of a hobby called "Bench Rest Shooting."

Of far more importance to accuracy at realistic defense ranges is the phenomenon called HOT/COLD barrel accuracy. At ranges far closer than your magic 500 yards, that is going to have a damping effect on accuracy. At least that is what the SEAL sniper who helped me accessorize and customize my Springfield Armory M1A .308 rifle told me during his training of me. By that time, I was still no novice and was already a senior NRA certified Instructor myself, but I long ago learned you never stop being a student if you truly wish to advance your own skills. HOT/COLD barrel issue will affect your point of impact at realistic rifle (using iron sights or non magnifying "dot sights") combat ranges of 100-250 meters. THAT's a realistic requirement for engagement using iron sights. But 500 yards?

Gimme a break.

40 posted on 01/25/2009 6:14:06 AM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: ExSoldier

Your post does hit some excellent points, and you are spot on about the bench rest shooting. I would like to add one thing.

Myself, I am good to about 150 yards, but in case something did happen, and I hope it doesn’t, the long range shot will be worthless.

Rather than buying up new rifles/pistols/shotguns (I already have a few of each) I am concentrating on ammo.

After all, a gun without a bullet is a very expensive bat, and completely useless at 50 yards.:)


42 posted on 01/25/2009 6:19:31 AM PST by shag377 (Illegitimis nil carborundum sunt!)
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To: ExSoldier
I love all the technical posts on these threads. And while instructive and adding to the overall knowledge base, I feel they tend to focus too much on the finer details.

I agree with you about sticking to realistic defense ranges.

From my non expert layman's common sense thinking:

In an SHTF scenario (for the vast majority of the Patriots): All those thousands of meticulously hand loaded tuned rounds aren't going to do you a damn bit of good once you've fired a shot in anger; you'll be wanted and hunted, hence mobile. And unless you have a safe, secure, reliable logistics support, you're going to be getting your ammo where you can find it.

Better to practice with differing loads from many sources within that realistic defense range and leave the tech craft, the art and science of ballistics to the ones who live it and breath it and make it their craft.

My $0.02

50 posted on 01/25/2009 8:09:10 AM PST by AFreeBird
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To: ExSoldier
I never mentioned iron sights, you did.

I wouldn't attempt a shot over 200yds with iron sight, and would prefer to be 100yds or less for that.

However, the hot/cold barrel issue you mention is alleviated by cryogenically treating a classic, lightweight barrel. It's more important with the "button-pull" rifling than cut rifling, but important nevertheless.

That "first shot" in a cold barrel will almost always hit differently than subsequent shots and the differenc3e can be dramatic...as much as 5 inches at 100yds.

You can get your barrel frozen for $250. It's worth it.

And YES, the average Joe with a $1000 rig can hit at 500yds, every time.

55 posted on 01/25/2009 2:27:54 PM PST by Mariner
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To: ExSoldier

The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, “Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms,” had this to say:

“The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the ‘Bull’s-Eye’ six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.

In comparison with this, all other so-called ‘long range firing’ pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used.”

The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War.


87 posted on 01/26/2009 7:46:36 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (Chevron 7 will not engage!)
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