shaef21:This statement, BroJoe, is a statement of faith. Congratulations, we are both coming at this from a faith perspective."
Don't be absurd. I said, "my guess is..." I didn't say, "I have religious faith that..." Surely even you would understand the difference between a simple "guess" and a religious "faith"?
I'll say again: if a serious scientist publishes serious evidence demonstrating serious flaws in evolutionary ideas, and somehow "proving" that the only viable alternative is "intelligent design," then I might take notice. But until something like that happens, I think evolution is the only real scientific explanation we have.
Do you disagree?
I’ll say again: if a serious scientist publishes serious evidence demonstrating serious flaws in evolutionary ideas, and somehow “proving” that the only viable alternative is “intelligent design,” then I might take notice. But until something like that happens, I think evolution is the only real scientific explanation we have.
Do you disagree?
I would ssy most people disagree because this is already happening, but the fact of the matter is they’re shut out, shouted down and sued.
I'd agree with that within the current philosophical framework that science has been held hostage in.
Science has been held hostage by the marxist, materialistic naturalism philosophy for some time now. For someone who is looking for a no God, no intelligence allowed explanation of how life arose on the earth, then yes, within this restrictive boundary that has been set on science, the ToE probably is the best that a naturalistic, no intelligence allowed science can come up with.
But don't forget, that science as we know it today deals with only a fraction of reality. According to it's practitioners, it is not equipped to nor capable of dealing with anything outside of that framework. So the other explanations of how life arose, creationism in particular, are not subject to science's scrutiny.
Since science is only dealing with part of reality, it is in no position to judge on what it doesn't deal with. It can make judgments about what fits within its own framework and HOPE that it's right, but can't be sure. It absolutely cannot make any determination on matters outside that physical world that it deals with.
Just because something is outside the physical, material world, doesn't mean that it's not real or not true. Just because the ToE is the best that current science has to offer does not mean that it's true, that it's correct, or that we have to accept it by default because it's all SCIENCE has to offer. Nor does it mean that by default any non-scientific explanation is wrong.
Nobody is under any obligation to accept as true something that scientists can't demonstrate as true themselves.
That also means that those who do not accept the hardline ToE as fact, do not need to put up with the nonsense of derision and ridicule and mockery that is regularly hurled our way simply because we don't toe the party line.
Not every challenge to the ToE is a religious argument. That's an intellectually dishonest attempt to shut down debate by disqualifying the arguments before they're even given consideration.
****I’ll say again: if a serious scientist publishes serious evidence demonstrating serious flaws in evolutionary ideas, and somehow “proving” that the only viable alternative is “intelligent design,” then I might take notice.****
Wow, BroJoe....you’ve left yourself a lot of loopholes.
He has to be a “serious” scientist, which I’m assuming that you want to be the arbiter of that.
It also has to be “serious” evidence....again I’m sure you will decide what is and isn’t serious.
They have to be “serious” flaws...same arbiter.
Somehow “proving” that the only viable alternative is “intelligent design”....first of all, a flaw shouldn’t have to prove anything. A flaw should expose a weakness in the theory, it doesn’t have to then provide an alternative.
I have to admit that I can’t figure out how you can profess belief in God and then say that there is no design. What exactly is it that God did?
I can point you to any number of books, DVDs and websites featuring learned men and women of science putting forth all kinds of flaws.....If I point you toward some would you actually read them? Be honest.
I’ll just throw this little tidbit at you about the giraffe. I’ll describe him to you and then ask you a question at the end.
The Bull Giraffe goes, on average, about 18’ tall. His neck, again on average, is about 6’ long. In order to pump blood against gravity up 6’ of neck to his brain requires a heart like a jackhammer. The giraffe’s heart is about 2.5’ long.
So now this giraffe has got the heart pounding like sledge hammer and decides to bend down and get a drink. With the pump now going with gravity instead of against it, he has just blown his brains out.....EXCEPT....in his arteries are little valves that shut down the flow of blood as he is bending over. The last valve though (and only the last valve) stays open and shoots the last squirt of blood into a sponge-like membrane that just happens to reside underneath the giraffe’s brain and absorbs the blood.
This, of course is extremely fortunate for the giraffe. As he’s drinking, he senses a predator and stands up quickly to run away. He then, from standing too quickly and having no blood flowing in his brain, passes out and gets eaten by the predator...EXCEPT....this doesn’t happen because as he stands up, the sponge shoots blood to the brain, the valves reopen to resume the blood flow and the giraffe can flee the predator.
Michael Behe has referred to this in his book “Darwin’s Black Box” as irreducible complexity. In order for this morphology to work, all of the pieces have to be present at the same time.
The neck without the heart....dead.
The heart without the neck....dead.
The neck without the valves....dead.
All of the above without the sponge....dead.
In other words, the morphology of the giraffe requires that:
1. A jackhammer heart
2. A 6 foot long neck
3. Valves in the arteries that close when he’s bending (except the last one) and open when he’s standing.
4. A sponge under his brain
all be present at the same time or he’s dead meat. Or to put it another way, extinct.
This means that if even one of these pieces is missing, the species ceases to exist.
Here’s my question....do you think all of those pieces evolved at the exact same time, defying all laws of probability and common logic....or is it more likely that the giraffe was designed by a Supernatural Creator.
Just askin’.....looking forward to your response.