Good Man or Bad Man?

The Virginian ^ | 11/11/2008 | The Virginian

[moneyrunner]

A debate is raging between the forces of “can’t we all get along” and the “hell no” crowd. It was started by Patterico who said (in recounting a discussion with his daughter):

Anyway, I have told her that Obama will probably win, and she was sad. “I don’t want Obama to be my President!” she said. I told her that McCain and Obama are both good men — and although I disagree with Obama, if he wins, we have to say: “Oh well, we tried. But he will still be my President.”

She’s still not very happy. Nor am I. But I want her to learn that no matter who wins, he’s a good man trying to do what he thinks is right for the country.

And Jeff Goldberg at Protein Wisdom who responded:

Precisely the kind of self-righteous civility that fried McCain. Want to be clapped on the back for your decorum? Fine. Just say so.

But let’s not pretend you are being honest or principled. Graciousness is one thing; praise is another.

This “good man” was involved in ACORN blackmail schemes. With an attempt to fraudulently undermine the Second Amendment by gaming court rulings. He got rich off of schemes that led to the mortgage crisis — then stood by and let others fix it in order to keep his hands clean during the final stages of an election. He has thrown in with race hustlers,”reformers” who believe that domestic terrorism was a valid form of expression, odious foreign potentates –

There is nothing at all noble about praising a man and a party who reviles you simply because in doing so you appear noble. Jews have tried that. And it’s often ended with skeletons and ash, or the twisted wreckage of a bus in Tel Aviv.

[mlocher]

Good Man or Bad Man?

Bad doesn't even begin to describe it. Obama is just doing what his values tell him to do. Good values or bad values? American values or anti-American values? We are in for an interesting four years, to say the least.

[raybbr]

I told her that McCain and Obama are both good men ...

How do you know Obama is a "good man". Name one association of his that YOU would associate with?

There is a quote, from the Bible I think, something like this: "You shall know a man by his friends!" (paraphrasing of course)

Also, how can you "know" a man you've never met?

[raybbr]

Sorry, I wrote that as if you were the author. I meant to address it to the guy who made the quote.

[Adder]

I agree with Jeff: we listened to 8 long years of people who didn’t want to get along except for a few brief shining months after 9-11.
There was nothing but rancor starting with the Dumbles in congress. Bush offered his hand and they couldn’t wait to crap in it.
In the immortal words, “the people have spoken...damn them” and the dumbles have the whole ball of wax. I do not wish them well. I do not expect good things from them. I will not be disappointed.

Zero is THE president but he will never be MY president.

[joma89]

Any man who uses the coercive power of government to steal is a bad man.

The converse is also true: Any woman who uses the coercive power of government to steal is a bad woman.

JoMa

[Tax-chick]

Good article. I don’t think Obama is a good man, and I don’t think that civility (or Christian virtue) requires me to congratulate, praise, or “support” him. My civic and religious duties are to pray for him to do right, and to obey the law unless it conflicts with my conscience.

My personal attitude is to carry out those duties while showing good manners, but if others wish to rant, that’s up to them.

[ThomasMore]

Good values or bad values?

Unfortunately the issue is more than VALUES. I have values that differ from yours. I value rural living while someone else values urban living. Values may just be differences in opinions, lifestyles etc. that can be benign.

However, that being said, my virtues should be no different than yours. And in fact they aren't, because virtues and vices are absolutes. Simple fact is, Barry Obama tries to present vices as if they are virtues and the ignorant masses of sheople out there are buying it.

Verbal engineering ALWAYS precedes social engineering. The hedonists have been replacing the words virtue and vice with a neutral word "VALUES" for nearly 60 years. many people now don't know the difference between value and virtue.

[ThomasMore]

That’s about it TC!

I refuse to compromise my Christian virtue either way with this man. But to call him “good” is to mislead other folks into believing a lie.

[ArrogantBustard]

0bama has wholly given himself over to evil. He is not a 'good man'. Neither was Slick Willy, although he was much less evil. Algore might be a 'good man' in the sense intended in this article, and Jimmy Carter was. Just horribly misguided. Not sure about Effin' Kerry. But 0bama is evil.

0bama = Abortion.

[mlocher]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I understand your point about virtues. I agree that they are very important, but I do have some comments in my defense.

Unfortunately the issue is more than VALUES. I have values that differ from yours. I value rural living while someone else values urban living. Values may just be differences in opinions, lifestyles etc. that can be benign.

Some values are more important than others and some values transcend individuals to become cultural values. For instance, I value keeping what I earn and I value human life from the time of conception. Many in the US also value these things and they become cultural values. However, we will have a president who does not value these things and is trying to change our culture.

However, that being said, my virtues should be no different than yours.

If we have the same cultural values, and are true to them, we should have the same virtues. Cultures with different values will have different virtues. For instance, it is a virtue to tell the truth in our culture and a virtue to protect life. In the Jihadist culture, where values are much different, it is a virture to kill yourself to kill infidels.

I know I am splitting hairs here, but virtues define the person and cultural values define the group/nation. I realize I took the liberty of now applying values to cultures to make my argument, which is a shift. I am sure we can both agree that our president-elect has a much different set of values than conservative America and his virtues, which are far different from mine and yours, reflect that.

[Tax-chick]

Good post, ThomasMore. I disagree with mlocher’s take on this. Virtues are virtues, and vices are vices, no matter what a particular culture values. These are absolutes, like gravity, that do not respond to personal or group opinion on them. If a culture values mendacity, considers it a virtue, that culture is in error, just as an individual would be.

[mlocher]

Tax-chick, thanks for checking in on this. I appreciate your thoughts and point of view.

If a culture values mendacity, considers it a virtue, that culture is in error, just as an individual would be.

I agree that that culture is in err, but it is in err based on my beliefs and values. That culture would also believe strongly that our culture and virtues are in err.

These are absolutes, like gravity, that do not respond to personal or group opinion on them.

I will make your argument even stronger. These are absolutes, like God's word spoken in the Bible. (God's word still exists in the extremities of the universe, even where there is no gravity -- smile.) But there are many cultures that do not base their values/virtues on THE triune God. They base it on something else, be it Allah, the earth or the god of gov't. To them, their actions will be virtuous, while to us, repulsive. Neither side will be able to convince the other of their error. This is why talking through things rarely works. This is why negotiating with terrorists is a fallacy and why reaching across the aisle only bloodies one up.

Thanks again!

[Thrownatbirth]

"He's a bad man, Jerry. A very BAD man!"

[tbpiper]

I told her that McCain and Obama are both good men

What is there in Obama's murky background that would lead one to belive him to be 'good'.? His 'christian faith' can not be cited because the man is simply not a Christian.

...we have to say: “Oh well, we tried. But he will still be my President.”

I'll pray for him in the sense that God keeps him in check. Otherwise, I'll do everything I can to oppose, frustrate, and sabotage his efforts to destroy our society.

[patriot08]

.

Hussein Obama will NEVER be my president.

This election was stolen by a Muslim/Marxist who had the power of millions of dollars worth of illegal campaign funds from America’s enemies overseas, the documented voter fraud of ACORN, the unrelenting campaigning for him by the leftist MSM and the most powerful black radical racists, Muslim terrorists and America haters on the globe behind him.

He’s not president YET.

You can tuck tail and shulk away.
You can whine to the choir
or you can FIGHT:

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[Tax-chick]

Neither side will be able to convince the other of their error. This is why talking through things rarely works. This is why negotiating with terrorists is a fallacy and why reaching across the aisle only bloodies one up.

I pretty much agree with that. It is not the usual thing for people to recognize error in their inherited cultural values. Not impossible, of course, or we'd all still be hunter-gatherers practicing human sacrifice.

Sometimes simple pragmatism can overcome mental or cultural inertia, as it were, but not always. When someone else's values (or virtues) consistently produce better practical outcomes, it appears people are just as likely to attack the others for outdoing them as they are to change their own ways in order to be more successful themselves.

[mlocher]

I think we are pretty much in agreement with things. I for one, would not like to be a hunter-gatherer, although in 4 years I may have to be in order to survive (smile).

Thanks to both of you for your interesting ideas. I love being challenged by intelligent people!

[Hildy]

If he came into your shop with his character references, you wouldn’t hire him. Period. He stood alone during every important moment of this campaign. THAT says alot.

[Tax-chick]

One of the greatest things about FR is that intelligent people pay attention to what one writes and point out errors or arguable points. Some more pleasantly than others, but there’s nothing like being called an idiot a few times to make you think things through a little more carefully!

If you’re like me, your family responds to your deep thoughts by saying, “Uh-huh, sure. Is my blue running shirt out of the wash yet? And where’d all the chips go?”