The Big Bang Fizzle part 2

The Evolution Handbook | 2005 | Vance Ferrell, B.A., M.A., B.D

[Creationist]

From “The Evolution Handbook” by Vance Ferrell, B.A., M.A., B.D

Printing 2005

From Chapter 2, pages 70 - 73

Part 2

The Big Bang

And Stellar Evolution

Let’s take it point by point--That is the theory. It all sounds so simple, just as you would find in a science fiction novel. And that is all it is. The theory stands in clear violation of physical laws. Celestial mechanics, and common sense. Here are a number of scientific reasons why the Big Bang theory is unworkable and fallacious.

THE BIG BANG EXPLOSION

1. - The Big Bang theory is based on theoretical extremes. It may look good in math calculation, but it can’t actually happen. A tiny bit of nothing packed so tightly together that it blew up and produced all the matter in the universe. Seriously now, this is a fairy tale. It is a bunch of armchair calculations, and nothing else. It is easy to theorize on paper. The Big Bang is a theoretical extreme, jast as is a black hole. It is easy to theorize that something is true, when it has never been seen and there is no definitive evidence that is exists or ever happened. Lets us not mistake Disneyland theories or science.

2. - Nothingness cannot pack together. It would have no way to push itself into a pile.

3. - A vacuum has no density. It is said that the nothingness got very dense, and that is why it exploded. But a total vacuum is opposite of total density.

4. - There is no way to expand it. How can you expand what isn’t there? Even if that magical vacuum could somehow be pulled together by gravity, what would then cause the pile of emptiness to push outward? The “gravity” which brought it together would keep it from expanding.

6 - Nothingness cannot produce heat. The intense heat caused by the exploding nothingness is said to have changed the nothingness into protons, neutrons, and electrons. First, an empty vacuum in the extreme cold of outer space cannot get hot by itself. Second, an empty void cannot magically change itself into matter. Third, there can by no heat without an energy source.

7 - The calculations are too exacting. Too perfect an explosion would be required. On many points, the theoretical mathematical calculations needed to turn a Big Bang into stars and our planet cannot be worked out; in others they are too exacting. Knowledgeable scientists call them “too perfect.” Mathematical limitations would have to be met which would be next to impossible to achieve. The limits for success are simply too narrow.

Most aspects of the theory are impossible, and some require parameters that would require miracles to fulfill. One example of this is the expansion of the original fireball from the Big Bang, which they place precisely within the narrowest of limits. An evolutionist astronomer, *R.H. Dickey, says it well;

“If the fireball had expanded only .1 percent faster,

The present rate of expansion would have been 3 x 10 to

the 3^rd power times as great. Had the initial expansion rate

been .1 percent less, the Universe would have expanded to

only 3 x 10 to the -6 power of its present radius before

collapsing. At this maximum radius the density of ordinary

matter would have been 10 to the -12^th power grm/m cube,

over 10 to the 16^th power times as great as the present mass

density. No stars could have formed in such a Universe, for it

would not have existed long enough to form stars.” - R.H. Dickey

Gravitation and the Universe (1969), p. 62.

8 - Such an equation would have produced not a universe but a hole. *Roger L. St. Peter in 1974 developed a complicated mathematical equation that showed that the theorized Big Bang could not have exploded outward into hydrogen and helium. In reality, St. Peter says the theoretical explosion (if one could possible take place) would fall back on itself and make a theoretical black hole! This means the one imaginary object would swallow another one!

9 - There is not enough antimatter in the universe. This is a big problem for the theorist. The original Big Bang would have produced equal amounts of positive matter (matter) and negative matter (antimatter). But only small amounts of antimatter exist. There should be as much antimatter as matter--if the Big Bang was true.

“Since matter and antimatter are equivalent in all respects but that of electromagnetic charge oppositeness, any force [the Big Bang] that would create one should have to create the other, and the universe should be made of equal quantities of each. This is a dilemma. Theory tells us there should be antimatter out there, and observation refuses to back it up.”--Isaac Asimov, Asimov’s New Guide to Science, p. 343.

“We are pretty sure from our observations that the universe today contains matter, but very little if any antimatter.”--Victor Weisskopf, “The Origin of the Universe,” American Scientist, 71, p. 479

10--The antimatter from the Big Bang would have destroyed all the regular matter. The fact is well known to physicists. As soon as the two are produced in the laboratory, they instantly come together and annihilate one another.

More to come part 3.

 

[muawiyah]

The Big Bang is consistent with Genesis ~

[Creationist]

You claim, The Big Bang is consistent with Genesis ~

I ask where is the millions of years that the Big Bang needs to evolve in the Bible.

Either the Bible is the infallible word of God or it is not.

If it is there is no room for the Big Bang as the Bible is clear of the generations, only about 6000 years have passed since Adam.

If it not then Jesus is not God and never did any of the miracles claimed in the Bible.

No the Big Bang is a denial of the Power of God, if one believes that man is superior and that he knows how the universe came about other than what is told in the Bible God spoke it into existence instantly, then he is not believing in the power of God to his fullest extent.

[muawiyah]

You're being silly. The "Big Bang" is set off by God Himself BEFORE TIME BEGINS ~ so it simply doesn't need "human time" to measure it.

My God is much more powerful than your god obviously ~ He created the universe and all that's in it, and set every power in motion. He's the God who commands the fields (SEE: field theory) and lays out the bounds of everything (SEE: hyperinflation), and stands astride Time, Space and all the other dimensions.

Your god would seem to be the sort of fellow who could get himself kicked out of heaven and be dashed to earth.

[Creationist]

Pretty powerful language.

The time, space and matter cannot exist without each other.

Genesis 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In the beginning, (time started)God created the heaven (space) and the earth (matter).

So who your god is, does not appear to be the God of the Bible, Jesus Christ.

Because it is clear God created time first at the beginning.

My God is all powerful that he can create the universe and everything in it with a word, no bang needed, no billions of years needed, just instant creation as stated.

[muawiyah]

Your example disproves your own contention. It's pretty clear that God created light once the nucleus of the creation had been done ~ it's several hundred million years after the point of creation where time begins that "light", that is, photons, can be unbundled from matter.

Then there's the issue of what is meant by "earth" in Genesis ~ but that is unknowable since it is without form. Still, somewhere in the as yet unformed, but existing universe, "Earth" does exist, right? The parts are there ~ the quarks and gluons, the strings, everything ~ yet it is not "formed".

We'd have to run the universe backwards from this point to find where those parts were exactly, but Genesis is telling us that this is unknowable ~ even God doesn't particularly know back at the time of the "Big Bang", but He's busy with other things.

I'd suggest my God is the same God that is manifest as Jesus and the Spirit and your god is the one who is tossed out of Heaven into the bowels of the Earth where he's busy making mischief.

[Creationist]

My example is clear.

Evolution has the earth a molten glob they oceans appear.

God says the earth is a liquid and then he make the dry-land appear

And no where in the Genesis account does it suggest that millions of years past during the creation.

If you quote the day is as a thousand years verse that still would not work. Because that would mean 500 years of light and 500 years of dark and plants could not live with that kind of environment. It will be said that I am limiting God by saying that, but I am not I am Glorifying God by believing as it is written 6 days of creation 24 hours each, that is a powerful God.

Also evolution has fish then reptiles then bird. Creation has fish and bird on the same day, then reptiles and beasts.

It is nice of your suggestion of whom I believe is God may you be blessed by Jesus for your concern.

[muawiyah]

Gehesis 1:2, to wit: "2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

That's the first couple of hundred million years right there, and we've done that BEFORE any discussion whatsoever of DAY.

I simply do not see a conflict between the Big Bang Theory (or rather, the Hyperinflation/Big Bang Theory) and Genesis in that.

You might, but you're jumping the gun and dragging language given later back into the beginning where only God can tell us what happened.

[Creationist]

Genesis 1:

1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

Gen 1:5 And God ⁰⁴³⁰ called ⁰⁷¹²¹ the light ⁰²¹⁶ Day ⁰³¹¹⁷, and the darkness ⁰²⁸²² he called ⁰⁷¹²¹ Night ⁰³⁹¹⁵. And the evening ⁰⁶¹⁵³ and the morning ⁰¹²⁴² were the first ⁰²⁵⁹ day ⁰³¹¹⁷.

Hebrew for first from Strongs Concordance

'echad {ekh-awd'}

1) one (number)

a) one (number)

b) each, every

c) a certain

d) an (indefinite article)

e) only, once, once for all

f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one

g) first

h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

Hebrew word for day

yowm {yome}

1) day, time, year

a) day (as opposed to night)

b) day (24 hour period)

1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1

2) as a division of time

a) a working day, a day's journey

c) days, lifetime (pl.)

d) time, period (general)

e) year

f) temporal references

1) today

2) yesterday

3) tomorrow

By the Hebrew definition there is no possible gap, span, great length of time insinuated in Genesis.

Also the Israel people who follow the Torah do not believe in evolution, and great time periods.

Evolution is contrary to the word of God.

You must believe the Bible to be 100% factual or it is a complete lie. I believe it all the way. You?

 

 

[muawiyah]

When you start applying "day" and other human measurements of time to that period when God, in Genesis, is saying the world is without form, you are misreading Genesis.

It is possible for Jews to fail to properly account for the ordering of events in Genesis. It is possible for Christians to fail to do so.

All you've done is make my point that the "Big Bang" and "Genesis" are not incompatible. There's really nothing to argue about until you come up with Genesis saying "On the First Day God created the Heavens and the Earth". Genesis, of course, said the Earth was without form, etc. Many words later Genesis uses the word "day" ~ but not before.

I'm afraid your reading of Genesis is an invention of the human mind and it simply does not match the structure of the language revealed to us.

[Creationist]

II Peter 1:20-21

20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

II Timothy 3:16

16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You said,

“I'm afraid your reading of Genesis is an invention of the human mind and it simply does not match the structure of the language revealed to us.”

If that is true then the above scriptures are also false, and the Levities who were in charge of the keeping of the word did a very bad job of keeping the words of Genesis which the Lord thy God inspired Moses to write.

You said,

“All you've done is make my point that the "Big Bang" and "Genesis" are not incompatible. There's really nothing to argue about until you come up with Genesis saying "On the First Day God created the Heavens and the Earth". Genesis, of course, said the Earth was without form, etc. Many words later Genesis uses the word "day" ~ but not before.”

You seem to think that the first day written in verse five does not happen until millions of years later. If that is true then none of the Bible is worth the paper it is written on. Because it would mean death and destruction which did not happen in the Bible until Adam and Eve at from the tree of Good and Evil.

There is no scriptural claim to the millions of years you proclaim. The only thing you are defending is mans wisdom over God’s written word.

It appears that you must believe what man tells you is the truth and you will pick and chose what you wish to believe in the Bible

John 14:

"6": Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

John 1:

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If these statements made by God are true then Genesis is true.

You can not have it both ways The Bible is 100% true or it is not that is your decision. I know it is the living word of God and is true to the last jot and tittle.

May the Lord Jesus bless you and yours beyond your expectations.

[muawiyah]

You can think what you want. If the universe is void and without form, it could be millions, zillions or no time at all eh!

You are still going to try to pin God down to doing all that basic creation business to "one day" aren't you?

Silly poster ~ God does things in His time, not yours.

BTW, Timothy read the same Genesis story we do ~ fundamental creation of the universe took place BEFORE the idea of day was inserted in the text.

Our assignment of "time" to that period of creation is simply arbitrary. There's no way we can go to the moment of creation and start counting ~ at best we can figure out how much energy was involved and then estimate how fast that energy could flow from one place to another, and how fast places might move apart, and so forth.

[Creationist]

Genesis 1

6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8: And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

On the second day he created the dry-land and the atmosphere which gave it the form.

I am a builder on the first day of construction the site is without, now mind you I can not build a structure in 6 days.

But God can build an entire universe in six days working and without evolution.

Those who believe that evolution is real and presume to know God limit his power within their minds.

God created everything in six literal days to give us an example of how we should structure our lives. Six days of work for our lives, and one day of praise, worship, and fellowship with like minded believers.

You said,

“BTW, Timothy read the same Genesis story we do ~ fundamental creation of the universe took place BEFORE the idea of day was inserted in the text”

Please enlighten me on this where is your documentation of this. Please show me the Hebrew text that did not have day in it.

You said,

“Our assignment of "time" to that period of creation is simply arbitrary. There's no way we can go to the moment of creation and start counting ~ at best we can figure out how much energy was involved and then estimate how fast that energy could flow from one place to another, and how fast places might move apart, and so forth.”

Let’s break it down,

Our assignment of "time" to that period of creation is simply arbitrary.

I did not assign that definitive God did so it seems that it is not arbitrary, unless you do not except God’s word as true and factual.

There's no way we can go to the moment of creation and start counting.

Partially true, yet we do know that Jesus Christ which is God, was born, lived, judged, crucified, died, and resurrected around 2000 years ago.

We do know that this happened about 2400 years after the flood of Noah’s time.

We also know that the flood happened about 1400 years after Adam was created. We know that the world was created very Good as God had Said in Chapter 1 Genesis, verse 31.

We know that Lucifer had not fallen from Grace yet in the beginning of Creation as in Chapter 28 Ezekiel verse 13-15 he walked in the garden of Eden, he was anointed and covered in precious stones walked on the Holy mountain. God would not bring this up if it had not happened before his fall.

With that said it is a guess that Adam and Eve lived in the Garden for about 100 years (speculative) before they sinned against God and started the dying process for the world and man. All the time lines in the Bible are either true or not. Which you believe is for your decision.

at best we can figure out how much energy was involved and then estimate how fast that energy could flow from one place to another, and how fast places might move apart, and so forth

From the reading I do on the subject of stellar evolution they, them, those, many, some, any, everybody do not have the slightest inclination of why every thing is as it is. They only have speculative theories based upon their presuppositions of a naturalist creative process by which nothing exploded into everything you see, hear, smell, taste and feel, without God as the creative force behind the whole process.

By the red shift patterns {all stars have some red shift and with evolutionary theories speed is the only account for this} every thing is moving away from us so does that mean the BB happened in our solar system?

[muawiyah]

What it means is that the way the universe is structured, the Big Bang began right where you are today ~ that is, technically, every spot in the universe was at the center at the moment of creation and still is.

Our God is a mighty God and can create the Universe as He sees fit.

[muawiyah]

BTW, in the first part in (the King James version of) Genesis NO TIME is specified. It is left indeterminant. "Day" does not appear for 72 more words (subdivided into several sentences and discrete thoughts and concepts) after the start of Genesis.

I think you are missing the point. There is simply no reference to time in the first 72 words in Genesis ~ not God-made, nor human-made. It ain't there!

You literally have to rewrite the Bible to start it out with "time" or references to time.

[Creationist]

You said,

“I think you are missing the point. There is simply no reference to time in the first 72 words in Genesis ~ not God-made, nor human-made. It ain't there!

You literally have to rewrite the Bible to start it out with "time" or references to time.”

I did not have to rewrite anything,

Genesis 1

1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Time, space and matter can not exist with out each other. You can not have space and matter and no time to put them in.

It is clear that the clock started ticking, time began 3^rd word.

[uglybiker]

And no where in the Genesis account does it suggest that millions of years past during the creation.

Genesis doesn't say it didn't, either.

God left that for us to discover.

[Creationist]

The time line of the Bible does not allow for it to happen any other way. If you do not believe that the universe and all was created exactly as the Bible says in Genesis, then how on earth can you believe that Jesus Christ is God robed in the flesh and come to atone us of our sins.

[uglybiker]

In regards to the Biblical timeline,I am willing to entertain the notion that the interperetaion of God's word by mortal man is flawed. Time is largely a construct of man to keep track of the universe around him. I wouldn't dare to suppose that God would be bound by those laws.

The Laws of Man are supposed to reflect the Will of God. Not the other way around.

[muawiyah]

Time, space and matter are simply names we apply to phenomenon we don't fully understand.

God is beyond that sort of thing.