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Busting Congress' Interstate Commerce Myth
The Federalist Blog ^ | August 21, 2006 | P.A Madison

Posted on 08/22/2006 11:24:35 AM PDT by AZRepublican

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.

The federal government for years has claimed expansive powers under the authority to regulate commerce – so much that the most innocent private activity can now come under federal control simply because it might have an influence on “interstate commerce.” But did the States really empower Congress through the US Constitution with such an expansive, seemingly unlimited power under the Commerce Clause?

There are two fundamental principles to understand when considering Congress’ power under the Commerce Clause. The first consideration is the fact the power to regulate commerce among the States, with foreign countries, and the Indian Tribes, is identical. The second important consideration to understand is that while the power to regulate commerce is identical across the board, each of the three enumerated entities of the clause has its own unique regulation objective born out of conflicts under the old Articles of Confederation.

The first question most surely crosses anyone’s mind when they come across the language of the clause is what the heck did the framers mean when they said, “to regulate”? Did they imply something like an exclusive power to legislate over all matters of commerce? No.

During the constitutional convention the words "sole and exclusive" before the word "power" was proposed as the language to empower Congress over all matters of commerce -- leaving little doubt over the sweeping power Congress would had been empowered with if indeed such language had been adopted. So obviously then, the majority of the State delegates had something entirely different in mind. And like just about everything given to the federal government, there were limitations imposed, and the regulation of commerce was to be no exception.

The term "regulate" was considered to have restrictive meaning; its meaning was understood to proscribe rules for the free unrestrictive flow of commerce, not an exclusive power to say, directly tax commerce or, take control of every aspect of commerce at its source as would have been the case with the rejected language. Further restriction was placed on the regulation of commerce not only by applying the term “regulate,” but also by combining the regulation of commerce between the States, Indian Tribes and foreign countries together in the same breath.

In an 1827 letter to Joseph Carrington Cabell, Madison explained the phrase this way:

The meaning of the power to regulate commerce is to be sought in the general use of the phrase; in other words, in objects generally understood to be embraced by the power when it was inserted in the Constitution.

Let’s first consider what steps lead to the clause being inserted. Early in 1786 commissioners were appointed by the State of Virginia to meet such commissioners as might be appointed by the other states, for the purpose of:

Considering how far a uniform system in the commercial regulations may be necessary to their common interests, and their permanent harmony; and to report to the several States such an act relative to that object as, when unanimously ratified by them, would enable Congress effectually to provide for the same.

James Madison tells us that the power to regulate commerce was fully understood among the States in a 1832 letter to Professor Davis of the University of Virginia:

The power to regulate commerce among the States was well known and so explained by the advocates of the Constitution when before the people for their consideration, to be as a necessary control on the conduct of some of the importing States toward their non-importing neighbors. A recurrence to the angry legislation produced by it among the parties, some of whom had passed commercial laws more rigid against others than against foreign nations, will well account for the constitutional remedy.

So the States had a ‘common interest’ in entrusting Congress with the authority to remedy the evil of one State placing restrictions on another States commercial intercourse. This in return would have the sought effect of a ‘permanent harmony’ among the States in commerce.

Many have wondered how can the regulation of commerce end at State lines when surely this would make such authority of regulating commerce limited. The answer should be obvious by now; no sole, exclusive power was granted over the subject of commerce within the States, i.e., it was limited by design. Recall that while the objectives for each object of the Commerce Clause is different, the power is identical, and therefore, the regulation of commerce must end at the State line just as it must at the legal limits of a foreign country.

President Monroe, told the House of Representatives on May 4, 1822, that the power of the “national government begins where the State governments terminate.”

Well now, generally when you cross a State line you immediately enter into another State jurisdiction, giving Congress no opportunity to exert restrictive control over the navigation of trade under the current theory of Interstate Commerce. And if a State is not laying duties or interring with a neighbors trade as it passes through, Congress’ authority to meddle within the State is nonexistent.

Jefferson said: “To make a thing which may be bought and sold, is not to prescribe regulations for buying and selling. Besides, if this were an exercise of the power of regulating commerce, it would be void, as extending as much to the internal commerce of every state, as to its external.

Congress’ only mandate under the Commerce Clause is to protect against any attempt by a State to impose restriction or duties on another States commerce. Congress was given no authority to apply its own restrictions or will upon the internal commercial activities of the States no more then they were with a foreign country. If Congress could get away with restricting commerce within State jurisdictions under the clause, would merely be introducing the very evil the clause was intended to remedy.

Congress may still attempt to ‘restrict’ trade through the use of duties placed upon imports from foreign sources via Section 9, but not through the Commerce Clause since the clause only object was to insure the freedom of commercial intercourse, not restriction or usurpation of State jurisdiction.

Charles Pinckney, a man who would know what he is talking about on the subject since he was involved in the framing of the Constitution, sums up the entire issue with this statement in the House of Representatives on February 14, 1820:

...I will only mention here, as it is perfectly within my recollection, that the power was given to Congress to regulate the commerce by water between the States, and it being feared, by the Southern, that the Eastern would, whenever they could, do so to the disadvantage of the Southern States, you will find, in the 6th section of the 1st article, Congress are prevented from taxing exports, or giving preference to the ports of one State over another, or obliging vessels bound from one State to clear, enter, or pay duties in another; which restrictions, more clearly than any thing else, prove what the power to regulate commerce among the several States means.

Now if we can only convince the courts and Congress what this clear proof means so that silly expansive interpretations may finally come to an end, and the rule of written law prevail.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: commerceclause; congress; contitution; federalism; interstatecommerce; madison; scotus
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To: robertpaulsen; tpaine; MamaTexan

Dear robertpaulsen:

Allow me to ask you a really stupid question: Do you agree the objective of regulating commerce among states as found in the constitution was to remedy one state from imposing duties on another states trade as passed through that state?

A simple yes or now will be fine.


61 posted on 08/25/2006 7:44:32 AM PDT by AZRepublican ("The degree in which a measure is necessary can never be a test of the legal right to adopt it.")
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To: AZRepublican
A simple yes or now will be fine.

Good luck with that.

62 posted on 08/25/2006 8:01:54 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am NOT a 'legal entity'...nor am I a *person* as created by law!)
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To: AZRepublican; MamaTexan

I see we're all in agreement that paulsen is incapable of complying with the rules of rational discourse.


63 posted on 08/25/2006 8:13:32 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: MamaTexan
"PROTECT AND FOSTER. The Founders thought unnecessary taxation abhorrent. They were to 'protect and foster' domestic manufacturers by taxing (and regulating) foreign trade."

Nothing about interstate there.

"Again, a tax on imports ENCOURAGES manufacture."

Nothing about interstate there either.

"When the States tried to tax imports, it created chaos because there were so many variations from State to State.

Nothing about interstate there either. Why is it that when I mention foreign trade in reply to your posts on foreign trade, you get in a tizzy about how it isn't interstate trade? But, post after post, YOU reference foreign trade.

Now, one of two things. Either you stop bringing up foreign trade or you allow me to respond to it without getting all sarcastic.

"Do you honestly think the sovereign States would turn over absolute control of their manufacturing and commerce to a newly-created and unknown entity?"

Nope. Under the Commerce Clause, Congress may only regulate commerce among the several states. Congress may not regulate the wholly internal manufacturing/commerce within the state.

"BTW, Madison wrote more than one letter to Cabell. Here's the second one-"

Madison's second letter is referring the dormant commerce clause: that is, absent any commerce regulation from Congress, states were free to use the commerce clause to settle their differences in federal court without Congress having to pass statute after statute. That's why the power to regulate commerce among the states was never taken away from the states in Article I, Section 10.

Congress certainly has the power to regulate this interstate trade and can pass laws to remedy any interstate disputes. As you mentioned before, this remedial power could have been lodged solely with Congress, allowing Congress to act for the good of all the people -- the general government.

But, as written, the commerce clause can be (and is) used "by the states themselves" as a negative and preventative provision against injustice without going to Congress. If State A taxed goods passing through it, other states could take State A to federal court to determine if this action impeded the free flow of goods. The court would act as arbiter.

I would guess that almost all interstate conflicts are resolved in federal court using the dormant commerce clause. Very rarely does Congress get involved in these inter-state disputes, contrary to your claim that this was THE main reason for the commerce clause.

64 posted on 08/25/2006 9:33:33 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: AZRepublican
"Do you agree the objective of regulating commerce among states as found in the constitution was to remedy one state from imposing duties on another states trade as passed through that state?"

THE objective? No.

65 posted on 08/25/2006 9:36:00 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
Nothing about interstate there either.

Did it ever occur to you that you are the one still asserting that the power to regulate interstate commerce IS there....even though you and I have both agreed that it ISN'T?

-----

But, post after post, YOU reference foreign trade

LOL! Could it be those are from the source YOU posted to back up YOUR assertion that the Constitution grants authority over interstate commerce, but all the source references is 'foreign trade'? (You really didn't read it, did you?)

-----

Either you stop bringing up foreign trade or you allow me to respond to it without getting all sarcastic.

Bite me. You are not forced against your will to respond to my posts.

-----

Congress may only regulate commerce among the several states.

That's right, the political entities known as States...when the States trade with each other. NOT the physical movement of goods across a geophysical boundary.

-----

Madison's second letter is referring the dormant commerce clause

1) Madison stated the original intent and purpose of the commerce clause.

2) The word 'dormant' never appears in his letter.

3)Finlaw shows 2 decisions concerning the commerce clause, one in 1847 and one in 1849. Madison's letter was written almost 20 years before those decisions.

4) Your source also states-
but, despite the fact that much ink was shed in multiple opinions discussing the questions, nothing definitive emerged.

So what's your point?

-----

Very rarely does Congress get involved in these inter-state disputes, contrary to your claim that this was THE main reason for the commerce clause.

Still nothing to back up you assertions, just another claim that your correct.

BTW-The federal/national government doesn't 'get involved' in interstate disputes because the Constitution gives it appellate jurisdiction, not original jurisdiction in areas where the States cannot come to a resolution on their own. The States can appeal to the federal government for arbitration.

-----

Still no rational argument, just complaints about how/what I post.

No sources to bolster you argument, either.

Good day.

66 posted on 08/25/2006 10:41:29 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am NOT a 'legal entity'...nor am I a *person* as created by law!)
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To: robertpaulsen; tpaine; MamaTexan

Interesting revison robertpaulsen. One more pesky question for you: Since you feel congress has de facto power over commerce among the states, wouldn't the power to tax exports, directing shipping to enter ports of one state over another be a significant power of regulating commerce among states and nations?


67 posted on 08/25/2006 10:50:51 AM PDT by AZRepublican ("The degree in which a measure is necessary can never be a test of the legal right to adopt it.")
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To: AZRepublican
Since you feel congress has de facto power over commerce among the states, wouldn't the power to tax exports, directing shipping to enter ports of one state over another be a significant power of regulating commerce among states and nations?

Sir!

How dare you display such flawless logic!

:-)

68 posted on 08/25/2006 11:34:37 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am NOT a 'legal entity'...nor am I a *person* as created by law!)
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To: MamaTexan
"That's right, the political entities known as States...when the States trade with each other. NOT the physical movement of goods across a geophysical boundary."

Interstate commerce is, BY DEFINITION, "the physical movement of goods across a geophysical boundary". What the heck are you babbling about?

"1) Madison stated the original intent and purpose of the commerce clause."

Yep. And I have no qualm with that.

What I object to is your assertion that it is the sole purpose of the commerce clause when you have shown absolutely nothing to back that up.

"The word 'dormant' never appears in his letter"

Correct. That's why they call it a "doctrine".

"Finlaw shows 2 decisions concerning the commerce clause, one in 1847 and one in 1849. Madison's letter was written almost 20 years before those decisions."

First of all, he's explaining the dormant doctrine (or principle) -- who cares when he does that? Plus, that explanation is in a private letter to an individual -- not a speech on the Senate floor or the language of a Bill.

Second, Findlaw mentions the first use of the term "dormant" by Chief Justice (and Founding Father) John Marshall in Willson v. Black Bird Creek Marsh Co., 27 U.S. 245 (1829), the same year as Madison's letter.

"So what's your point?"

My point? Gee, that makes one wonder if you have a comprehension problem or just like to use it when you have no actual response.

Here. I'll restate it for you. You're were wrong when you stated "One of the main functions of the newly created federal government was that is was to act as an arbitrator between the States." The dormant commerce clause allowed the states themselves to resolve their differences in federal court -- not through Congress passing laws removing barriers and encouraging commerce.

That's my point. Repeated again."Still nothing to back up you assertions, just another claim that your correct."

I gave you the "dormant" link. It mentions a ton of state cases. Check the footnotes. And your claim is backed up where?

"The federal/national government doesn't 'get involved' in interstate disputes because the Constitution gives it appellate jurisdiction, not original jurisdiction in areas where the States cannot come to a resolution on their own."

Well, so much for Mr. Story's claim that the federal government is going to run amok with the commerce clause and regulate everything, huh?

69 posted on 08/25/2006 11:35:59 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: AZRepublican
Yes or no again?

Yes, that would indeed be a significant power.

70 posted on 08/25/2006 11:40:57 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
Well, so much for Mr. Story's claim that the federal government is going to run amok with the commerce clause and regulate everything, huh?

When the Constitution says 'the United States', do you think it always means the entire country?

71 posted on 08/25/2006 11:58:23 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am NOT a 'legal entity'...nor am I a *person* as created by law!)
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To: MamaTexan
"When the Constitution says 'the United States', do you think it always means the entire country?"

Of course not. It means Cleveland, Ohio.

72 posted on 08/25/2006 12:09:11 PM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
Of course not. It means Cleveland, Ohio.

That sound you just heard was your last shred of credibility slipping away.

Again, good day.

73 posted on 08/25/2006 12:12:38 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am NOT a 'legal entity'...nor am I a *person* as created by law!)
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To: MamaTexan
"Again, good day."

Run away!


74 posted on 08/25/2006 12:32:11 PM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: AZRepublican
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. I disagree with the assertion that the 9th and 10th amendments are not part of the Bill of Rights. They most certainly included in that categorically, both historically and in principle. The bill of rights was meant to restrict government power in order to secure the rights retained by the people. Though these amendments are more general, they attempt to do the same thing as the other 8, namely protect the rights of the people. The 9th amendment is explicitly about the rights of the people as is the the 10th amendment which protects not only the powers reserved to the states from federal encroachment but also those powers which the people have reserved to themselves to exercise as they see fit.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

75 posted on 10/03/2006 11:26:54 PM PDT by old republic
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To: AZRepublican
Nope. The source of government's authority is the U.S. Constitution. The People may not authorize the government to act contrary to the constitution.

And what is the source of the authority of the Constitution? The Constitution is of itself meaningless without the people. The declaration of Independence makes it very clear that just governments derive their authority from the consent of the governed, and the only reason that the Constitution is worth the paper it is written upon is because it represents the consent of the governed, and the rules under which they have consented to be governed. Make no qualms about it, in principle it is the consent of the people which has given the constitution and the government created under it any authority.

76 posted on 10/03/2006 11:40:04 PM PDT by old republic
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