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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
I reject Rousseau as well. The French were blessed with great Enlightenment thinkers, but it was the socialists (Danton and others) that took the revolution and turned it into an anti-clerical/anti-Captilist free for all. I think some one said that the difference between the French and America experience is that America’s founders believed that all men were CREATED equal, but the French believed that all men should be MADE equal.

You are right to say that what were are fighting is a form of Collectivism. What tradional collectivists fail to realize is that the Islamic form is not compatable with their own. They don't seek to find common ground with it anymore than the National Socialists ever sought to find common ground with the Bolshevists.
13 posted on 02/03/2006 4:07:10 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: Sam Gamgee
Yeah, "liberty, equality, brotherhood, or death" is a far cry from "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" (or "life, liberty, property"). The "equality" part sort-of contradicts the "liberty" part, at least the way we understand "liberty." Moreover, for the "anti-clerical" among us that do not believe in a divine "Creator," saying that we are "created" equal is the same thing as saying we ARE equal. Perfect for freedom-loving believers, perfect for freedom-loving non-believers, but not so perfect for collectivists. Good.

As for Islam's incompatibility with other forms of collectivism, NO form of collectivism is really compatible with any other form. Even if the particular ideologies are the same in theory, there are always cultural, religious, or regional differences that would eventually pit any group of collectivists against others. That is why a system that legally places the individual over the group is not only the best in theory, but also in practice. I don't mean to sound like a utopian, because for one reason or another there will always be conflict, but maximum individual freedom should still be the goal. I only hope that liberals who agree with Islam's anti-capitalist stance, and conservatives who agree with Islam's anti-popular-culture stance, figure this out before mushroom clouds start a-formin'.

14 posted on 02/03/2006 4:59:48 PM PST by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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