The Fair Tax: attacks federalism, promotes democracy!

It’s absolutely amazing that our Republican Party leaders and many political action groups, when it comes to factual information concerning taxation, “conservatism” and “tax reform“, are suspiciously silent to an important provision of our Constitution which the Founding Fathers agreed upon to provide protection against mob rule vote [democracy], a poison which now works to allow the spending of federal revenue without a proportional obligation in filling our national treasury.

Republicans and political action groups who support H.R. 25 and promote it as being “conservative tax reform“ ignore how it cleverly undermines and violates the Founding Fathers’ agreed upon rule intended to protect us from “democracy” when a general tax is laid among the States to fill the national treasury.

Of course, Republican Conservatives who doubt our founding fathers intentionally agreed upon a specific rule to protect us from “democracy” and its inherent and devastating financial consequences associated with taxing and spending, need to study the debates during which time our Constitution was framed and then judge whether or not H.R. 25 undermines our Founding Fathers’ rule for a general tax among the states.

Those who take the time and study the debates will discover a specific rule was in fact created to protect us from democracy when the states are called upon to contribute into the common treasury, and wealth is used as a measure in calculating a tax among the states.

NOTE:Under the Articles of Confederation a general across-the-board-tax among the states to fill the national treasury was based upon wealth in which each member state agreed to contribute into the common treasury in proportion to its assessed land value, i.e., wealth.

“All charges of war, and all other expences that shall be incurred for the common defence or general welfare, and allowed by the united states in congress assembled, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the several states in proportion to the value of all land within each state, granted to or surveyed for any Person, as such land and the buildings and improvements thereon shall be estimated according to such mode as the united states in congress assembled, shall from time to time direct and appoint.”

The following quotes from Madison‘s Notes on the convention of 1787 establishes the new rule for a general tax and expose the true nature of Republicans and political action groups who support H. R. 25, a proposal which turns out to be another twist on income taxation and boils down to the following concept___ from each state according to their ability, to Congress’ constituents according to their needs.

Mr. Govr. MORRIS … thought property ought to be taken into the estimate as well as the number of inhabitants. Life & liberty were generally said to be of more value, than property. An accurate view of the matter would nevertheless prove that property was the main object of Society. . . . These ideas might appear to some new, but they were nevertheless just. If property then was the main object of Govt. certainly it ought to be one measure of the influence due to those who were to be affected by the Governmt. … He thought the rule of representation ought to be so fixed as to secure to the Atlantic States a prevalence in the National Councils….”

Mr. RUTLIDGE…. The gentleman last up had spoken some of his sentiments precisely. Property was certainly the principal object of Society. If numbers should be made the rule of representation, the Atlantic States will be subjected to the Western. He moved . . . "that the suffrages of the several States be regulated and proportioned according to the sums to be paid towards the general revenue by the inhabitants of each State respectively.”

….“ The value of land had been found on full investigation to be an impracticable rule. The contributions of revenue including imports & exports, must be too changeable in their amount; too difficult to be adjusted; and too injurious to the non-commercial States. The number of inhabitants appeared to him the only just & practicable rule.

Mr. Govr. MORRIS “…the Legislature shall possess authority to regulate the number of Representatives in any of the foregoing cases, upon the principles of their wealth and number of inhabitants."

Mr. BUTLER …urged warmly the justice & necessity of regarding wealth in the apportionment of Representation.

Genl. PINKNEY …dwelt on the superior wealth of the Southern States, and insisted on its having its due weight in the Government.

Mr. WILLIAMSON …was for making it the duty of the Legislature to do what was right & not leaving it at liberty to do or not do it. He moved that Mr. Randolph's proposition be postpond in order to consider the following "that in order to ascertain the alterations that may happen in the population & wealth of the several States, a census shall be taken of the free white inhabitants and 3/5 ths. of those of other descriptions on the 1st. year after this Government shall have been adopted and every year thereafter; and that the Representation be regulated accordingly."

Mr. RUTLIDGE …contended for the admission of wealth in the estimate by which Representation should be regulated. …. He moved that "at the end of years after the 1st. meeting of the Legislature, and of every years thereafter, the Legislature shall proportion the Representation according to the principles of wealth & population"

Mr. SHERMAN …thought the number of people alone the best rule for measuring wealth as well as representation; and that if the Legislature were to be governed by wealth, they would be obliged to estimate it by numbers. He was at first for leaving the matter wholly to the discretion of the Legislature; but he had been convinced by the observations of [Mr. Randolph & Mr. Mason,] that the periods & the rule, of revising the Representation ought to be fixt by the Constitution

Mr. MADISON …Future contributions it seemed to be understood on all hands would be principally levied on imports & exports. …He could not agree that any substantial objection lay agst. fixig numbers for the perpetual standard of Representation…It was said that Representation & taxation were to go together; that taxation and wealth ought to go together, that population & wealth were not measures of each other.

Mr. Govr. MORRIS …moved to add to the clause empowering the Legislature to vary the Representation according to the principles of wealth & number of inhabts. A "proviso that taxation shall be in proportion to Representation."

General PINKNEY… liked the idea. He thought it so just that it could not be objected to. But foresaw that if the revision of the census was left to the discretion of the Legislature, it would never be carried into execution. The rule must be fixed, and the execution of it enforced by the Constitution.

Mr. WILSON …approved the principle, but could not see how it could be carried into execution; unless restrained to direct taxation.

Mr. Govr. MORRIS …having so varied his Motion by inserting the word "direct." It passd. nem. con. as follows-"provided the always that direct taxation ought to be proportioned to representation."

The tax described in H.R. 25 is a tax calculated from the value of property within each particular state and determines the amount of tax contributed into the common treasury by each particular state. But the rule requiring such a tax to be apportioned among the states based upon each states’ number of allotted representatives is ignored under H.R. 25, and thereby subjugates the agreed upon rule that taxation and representation shall be fixed by the same standard!

Ignoring this rule allows the various State Delegates in Congress Assembled to vote to spend money without a fear of their state having to carrying a proportional obligation to replenish the money spent from the common treasury ___ one of the major defects of income taxation and democracy___ which our founding fathers corrected by the rule of apportioning when a general tax is laid, the new rule intended to guarantee Representation with proportional obligation!

H.R. 25, just as income taxation, is another attack upon property ownership, federalism, and gives in to “democracy”, mob rule vote.

Madison, in talking about democracy, in Federalist Paper No. 10 refers to “the violence of faction” and also emphatically states: “ that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”

Madison continues: "The inference to which we are brought is that the causes of faction cannot be removed, and that relief is only to be sought in the means of controlling its effects."

In controlling the “means“, the founding fathers provided a specific rule by which the various states are to contribute into the federal treasury…a rule which was specifically intended to thwart a specific evil of democracy___ two sheep and a wolf voting for what shall be for dinner.

Sorry for the length of the article, but I thought the information may be useful to some, especially those who have been conned by the proponents of democracy under their socialist friendly H.R. 25 tax proposed reform!

The only tax reform we need is for the people to demand their employees add the following words to our Constitution:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay “any” tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money.

See how easy real tax reform is? It doesn’t take 135 pages of bullstuff, loopholes and gobblygoo [H.R.25] which would leave us on a sinking ship…it only takes 32 words for the people of America to re-establish a fair system of taxation, our founder’s plan, which would also gain control of a runaway Congress!

For a documented summary of the rule by which the states have agreed to fill the national treasury in a general across the board tax, CLICK HERE

CLICK HERE for the Founder’s Plan___ scroll down to:
American Constitutional Research Service Before the
Committee on Ways and Means
United States House of Representatives
June 1995

[Permission is hereby given to reprint this article if credit to its author and the ACRS appears in such reprint. No copyright is claimed for quotes within the article which are public domain materials.]

Here's a bit more "clarification" for you about the ACRS and it's co-founder JOHN W K. In his post #17 he gives a link to a description of his "only associate" in ACRS, a certain now deceased Ed Ellison.

If you follow this link it leads to a decription (which is from the "Save-A -Patriot Fellowship" website) that offers the information "Special Note: Ed Ellison was for many years an integral part of the Save-A-Patriot Fellowship" and goes on glowingly about him.

Perhaps that means nothing to you but should you follow the matter up you'll find that one of the founders of the SAPF is a John Kotmair; a notorious convicted felon in relation to income tax matters - in fact it (the SAPF) is an entire business devoted to the Tax Protest movement. Note the capitals to distinguish it from the normal tax protests not involving criminal activity.

You can find out more about John Kotmair and his loose band of affiliates on any of several websites giving information about such folk.

Since the poster JOHN W K was such a close associate in co-founding the ACRS with his friend who was so instrumental in the Tax Protester movement, it is pretty much a no-brainer to realize where JOHN W K is really coming from ... and it ain't any real "Research" service no matter how fancifully named.

Many of these TP types like to wrap themselves in the American flag - especially the Revolutionary War version of it - and JOHN W K seems no different than the rest of them.

Consider yourself advised!!!

pigdog wrote:

Here's a bit more "clarification" for you about the ACRS and it's co-founder JOHNK W …. John Kotmair; a notorious convicted felon in relation to income tax matters - in fact it (the SAPF) is an entire business devoted to the Tax Protest movement. …Since the poster JOHN W K was such a close associate in co-founding the ACRS with his friend who was so instrumental in the Tax Protester movement, it is pretty much a no-brainer to realize where JOHN W K is really coming from ... and it ain't any real "Research" service no matter how fancifully named"

My goodness, pigdog, guilt by association! You must have studied under the Alito smear fellowship gang headed by Schumer, Ted Socialist Kennedy, and, Dianne finish-the-sentence-Kennedy Feinstein!

Your still very amusing pigdog…. when all else fails, smear the messenger.

“it is pretty much a no-brainer to realize where JOHN W K is really coming from ... and it ain't any real "Research" service no matter how fancifully named“

Is that so Piggy? Hopefully you will find the following researched articles interesting and informative!

Exposing the despotic education reform bill

Raich v. Ashcroft, a chance to overturn despotic law!

The S.C., domestic enemies, and the anchor and rudder of our constitutional system!

42 tyrants and a ring leader named Bloomberg

Regards,

JWK

No, johnnicakes, its called guilt by participation (yours). Or perhaps you'd like to claim you didn't know the Save-A-Patriot Fellowship is an anti-government Tax Protester site and your friend just happened to have his name used from its inception and that, of course, you had "no knowledge" of that? Riiight!

Your continual misinformation about HR25 quickly dissipates when people read the bill and study the detailed information available about the FairTax. It is readily apparent to most that your HR25 claims are nonsense and nothing but a diatribe to serve your own ends.

All four of your supposedly "researched" (by you, of course) links are merely more of your irrational vanity pieces ranting and raving about a country you hate and a system for free people that you despise. Trying to take that apart by any means possible won't work, johnnicakes, and you're hardly the first to try it. Even your pal John Kotmair is now a convicted felon for his efforts. Perhaps you'll be that successful, too.

And anyone caring to do the research (rather than visiting the self-serving vanity sites you create and continually link to) will soon find out that your supposed "tax plan" nearly tore this country apart and worked so well that it was replaced by our first income tax in 1863, It was an abject failure. But of course an integral part of the TP agenda is to try to tear this country apart by any means possible.

You guys never change and I notice you try to claim (poorly done, BTW) that I'm some sort of left-leaning socialist when in fact that is what you are hoping for; socialism - or a complete collapse of the present government; whichever comes first. Your links are trash and nothing but.

One of the alleged features of H.R. 25 is that it will cut the billions and billions of dollars, and the man hours now wasted, in the collection and administration of the tax. This turns out to be another fraud being perpetrated upon the people. Why? Well, for example, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, and other tradesmen who are self employed will pay the 23 % tax on the supplies they purchase at retail. These poor souls will also have to register with the federal government to engage in their occupations and also keep burdensome records and reports as Congress may so desire. The path which leads to such oppression is found in the language of H.R. 25 which some may have missed and reads:

SEC. 407. JURISDICTION.
`(a) STATE JURISDICTION- A sales tax administering authority shall have jurisdiction over any gross payments made which have a destination (as determined in accordance with section 405) within the State of said sales tax administering authority. This grant of jurisdiction is not exclusive of any other jurisdiction that such sales tax administering authority may have.
(b) FEDERAL JURISDICTION- The grant of jurisdiction in subsection (a) shall not be in derogation of Federal jurisdiction over the same matter. The Federal Government shall have the right to exercise preemptive jurisdiction over matters relating to the taxes imposed by this subtitle.
Regards,
JWK

More of your lies, johnnicakes. You should stick to Tax Protest promotion. You have routinely planted misinformation upon misinformation on these threads about the FairTax (HR25) and what it does and does not do. Your aim, of course, is to take away a tax plan which would greatly help the economy of the country and its taxpayers while at the same time trying to con readers into believing in a tax plan that failed before and was replaced by our first income tax in 1863 would do anything beneficial this time in a far more complex set of circumstances.

Your have made numerous claims of what HR25 is and does and in many instances these are gross lies - or, being charitable, just plain ignorance (which is palpable in your case). Your TP agenda is never far from the surface and you must resort to untruths in an attempt to further it. Your former associate Ed Ellison would be proud as would John Kotmair and the Save-A-Patriot Fellowship.

Nothing is too outrageous to attempt to disrupt the country, eh?? A failed tax system is just the first item on the agenda, isn't it? After that, what? Socialism? Fascism? Nihilism? Anarchy? Any of those make you a "winner" in your view but certainly not in the mainstream view of most citizens of the country.

Having long experience with you on other threads I realize you will not admit to any of your "misstatements" (aka lies) but will instead continue them, spewing them out as frequently as you can and trying to inveigle readers into your vanity sites where (you hope) you can practice you attempts at mind control without being rebutted as you are on these threads.

If readers stop to think, johnnicakes, they will grasp the reality of the fact that you have:

1) No bill before Congress (or even NOT before Congress).

2) No Congressional sponsors - or even support.

3) No Congregational co-sponsors.

4) No studies by recognized economists showing how your crackpot and ill-named "tax plan" would raise sufficient funds to run the country without causing complete chaos (as it eventually did after the original implementation).

5) No showing that it would do anything beneficial for our country's economy - let alone the taxpayers themselves.

6) No showing that the FairTax bill does not accomplish exactly the goals you PURPORT to have in mine (but really don't) since HR25 is both constitutional and accomplishes all that does the your "wonderwording" you'd like amended into the Constitution ... all without disrupting our country (but in fact actually benefiting it).

You'll not get many TP takers from these threads, pal.

Representative John Linder, says:

I am the primary sponsor of the FairTax, legislation that will repeal all corporate and individual income taxes, payroll taxes, self-employment taxes, capital gains taxes, estate taxes and gift taxes - and replace it with a revenue-neutral personal consumption tax.

In regard to the above statment another interesting observation concerning H.R. 25 is, we are told the proposal will repeal income taxation and the IRS will be closed down. But is this really true?

After reading the language of H.R. 25 it becomes quite obvious there is no attempt to repeal or prevent Congress from laying and collecting an excise tax as upheld in FLINT v. STONE TRACY CO., 220 U.S. 107 (1911) a case decided prior to the adoption of the 16th Amendment. And why is this important? Because the tax upheld in the FLINT CASE is not an income tax, but an excise tax, and the amount of tax to be paid is calculated from “income’’ and does not rely upon the IRS CODE or income taxation which H.R. 25 mentions.

Under the language of H.R. 25, it appears the tax mentioned in the FLINT CASE remains untouched and is a loophole cleverly left which allows Congress, in keeping within the language of H.R. 25, to impose an excise tax upon Corporations, certain privileged occupations, individuals and events, and then calculate the amount of tax to be paid from profits and/or gains (income)!

So, in spite of all the talk about repealing various sections of the IRS Code and closing it down as portrayed on the cover of the Fair Tax Book, the same type of misery now suffered under income taxation, the Internal Revenue Service and the IRS Code, appears to remain very much alive under H.R. 25 by a subtle loophole left by the architects of the proposal!

If H.R.25 is adopted and Congress followed it to the letter with the loophole the architects have left, Congress is invited to simply erase the word “Internal” from “Internal Revenue Code” and replace that word with “Corporate“, as in “Corporate Revenue Code,” and, likewise erase the word “Internal” from “Internal Revenue Service” and replace it with “Corporate“, as in “Corporate Revenue Service“, and go about its business inflicting the same time consuming and costly misery upon Corporations and individuals as now done, but in addition, these corporations will also have to abide by and follow an additional rule book, the newly created H.R. 25 rule book, with all its new regulations for record keeping as will be created under H.R. 25!

H.R. 25, in all honesty, doesn’t “eliminate” squat as Boortz portrays on the cover of his book. And it especially does not even make an attempt to stop Congress from calculating a tax from corporate income.

H.R. 25 has carefully left the above mentioned loophole so Congress, especially a future socialist dominated Congress, even if the 16th Amendment is repealed as promised, to enact, say a small tax upon those wealthy evil corporations and scoundrels who make millions of dollars a year and bleed the poor working people, such as was alleged about Leona Helmsley who they sent to jail for an alleged tax fraud, but who actually contributed into the common treasury more in taxes than any twenty average working people in New York.

Perhaps I’m wrong and someone___ maybe even Neal Boortz or his talking pet pig___ will come to the defense of H.R. 25 and explain to us how H.R. 25 is intended to prevent Congress from laying an excise tax on Corporations, certain privileged occupations, individuals and events, and then calculate the amount of tax to be paid from income, leaving the American People in the same situation we are now in, but with an additional rule book to follow in the payment of taxes which tightens the iron fist of government around the productivity of the American People.

The only tax reform we need is for the people to demand their employees add the following words to our Constitution:

Regards,

JWK

“He has erected a multitude of new offices and sent hither swarms of officers, to harass our people, and eat out their substance” ___Declaration of Independence

Well actually, johnnicakes, when you say:

"... we are told the proposal will repeal income taxation and the IRS will be closed down. But is this really true? ..."

... you are making a misstatement of fact right there. "We" are not "told" that at all. Those actions are part and parcel of the language of the FairTax bill, HR25, and is available for anyone to read. It says it very clearly and in no uncertain terms. It not only removes the pertinent parts of the tax code, but eliminates and the IRS (and defunds it) as well as requiring the destruction of the income tax records.

Your so-called "16th repeal" wording does nothing of the sort - leaving all that bureaucratic mechanism and infrastructure in place awaiting the very artifice that you erroneously claim can be done with the FairTax which has eliminated that ability since there is not only no extant mechanism but there is no infrastructure AND there is no basis for continuing such a cleverly-misnamed tax as the basis for it - the income tax records - will have been destroyed.

Your circumlocutory palaver (your 16th wording) actually leaves all of those things intact merely awaiting the implementation of the artifice you accuse the FairTax of. You have exactly described what can be done using your own "16th wording" but erroneously ascribed it to the FairTax which will actually have eliminated the mechanism and infrastructure for doing so along with the basis for doing so (the tax records). In other words you are giving out incorrect information in both instances to not only hide your own TP agenda but to misrepresent what the FairTax does. Sort of flinging out BS with both barrels of your shotgun, johhnicakes.

Your scheme allows those income tax remnants to be used right along without missing a beat. Nor does your illogical wording hinder Congress in any respect from doing so and, in fact, your phrase "... any other lawfully realized money ..." merely shows how dumb the statement is. This would mean that only "unlawfully realized money" could be used by Congress to derive revenue from ... which source is, by definition, unknown in any great detail and presently evades almost all taxes (and that wouldn't change with your notion) - therefore making Congress ineffective in raising funds to operate. That, of course, is what you TP types hope for - the destruction of the government and creation of chaos.

Over and above all of that, johnnicakes, your "16 wording" does nothing to hinder Congress in raising funds and they would raise them from (guess what) ... taxpayers. These taxpayers will have to pay these taxes from the only place possible - their incomes in the form of (gasp) money. That would mean that immediately the tax would be apportioned to each state who would each in its own manner would have to put the squeeze on its citizens for the money which you had just said in your wording could not be taxed. That's more than just a tad deceitful, johnnicakes, that's a downright sham and lie.

Perhaps you can fool enough people to swallow such nonsense along with the other TP garbage, but if so they would certainly deserve what they would get.

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