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Garbage In, Garbage Out On Ethanol
The (Fargo) Forum ^ | 07/20/2005 | Editorial Board

Posted on 07/20/2005 2:45:34 PM PDT by Fog Nozzle

Exerpt From The Editorial:

Two researchers who concluded it takes more energy to make ethanol than the corn-based fuel contains are guilty of "garbage in, garbage out." Their research is misleading at best, dishonest at worst.

David Pimental of Cornell University and Tad Patzek of Berkeley have done little more than recycle warmed over criticism of ethanol, most of which has been discredited by several other university and USDA studies. While Pimental and Patzek claim it takes 29 percent more fossil energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the amount of fuel the process produces, more credible studies found ethanol delivers up to 60 percent more energy than the amount used in production.

It's probably no coincidence that Pimental and Patzek would come to their anti-ethanol findings. Both have ties to the oil industry. (See Jocie Iszler's commentary on this page.) Pimental in particular has a record of trying to discredit ethanol production, despite overwhelming evidence that it's a net energy plus for the nation.

At a time when millions of American consumers are urging their lawmakers to bolster the use of homegrown renewable fuels, researchers David Pimentel and Tad Patzek remain firmly entrenched in the big oil rut. Why does the Associated Press continue to lend credibility to the pair's ethanol energy balance research when it has been disproven time and time again?

Excerpt from Mark Johnson's most recent AP article reports on the recent work (regurgitation of 25-year-old data) of Pimentel (an entomologist with ties to the petroleum industry) and Patzek (a former Shell Oil employee) as if it is the gospel truth. Iszler is executive director of the N.D. Corn Council.

(Excerpt) Read more at in-forum.com ...


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: ethanol; farmerwelfare; scam

1 posted on 07/20/2005 2:45:36 PM PDT by Fog Nozzle
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To: Fog Nozzle
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
2 posted on 07/20/2005 2:49:23 PM PDT by Rakkasan1 (If at first you don't succeed, failure may be your thing.)
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To: Fog Nozzle
Um...if ethanol is more efficient than gasoline, why isn't it cheaper than gasoline? Especially given all the gov't. subsidies on ethanol and taxes on gasoline.

Just sayin'...

3 posted on 07/20/2005 2:49:33 PM PDT by Go_Raiders ("Being able to catch well in a crowd just means you can't get open, that's all." -- James Lofton)
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To: Fog Nozzle

The only civilized way to burn ethanol is in one's liver.


4 posted on 07/20/2005 2:51:54 PM PDT by Spok (A bad movie with horses is better than any movie with none.)
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To: Fog Nozzle

Doh! Hit Post instead of Preview. The last paragraphs should have looked like this:

Excerpt from Ms Iszler's commentary:

At a time when millions of American consumers are urging their lawmakers to bolster the use of homegrown renewable fuels, researchers David Pimentel and Tad Patzek remain firmly entrenched in the big oil rut. Why does the Associated Press continue to lend credibility to the pair's ethanol energy balance research when it has been disproven time and time again?

Mark Johnson's most recent AP article reports on the recent work (regurgitation of 25-year-old data) of Pimentel (an entomologist with ties to the petroleum industry) and Patzek (a former Shell Oil employee) as if it is the gospel truth.

(Iszler is executive director of the N.D. Corn Council.)


5 posted on 07/20/2005 2:51:56 PM PDT by Fog Nozzle
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To: Go_Raiders

Probably due to the market price for corn. Just a guess.


6 posted on 07/20/2005 2:53:59 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: Go_Raiders

Ethanol can be cheaper than gasoline. The problem is that most people are using ethanol as a 10-percent additive, which actually makes it more expensive. As an 85-percent fuel mixture, it's actually cheaper than 87 octane, but only certain "flexible-fuel" vehicles can use it. And haven't they been making ethanol out of corn in the form of corn whiskey for centuries now?


7 posted on 07/20/2005 2:54:57 PM PDT by jmyrlefuller
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To: Fog Nozzle

My thermodynamics teacher back in 1992 spoke about ethanol. His points were that ethanol produces substantially less energy per gallon than gas and actually pollutes more. This does not disregard the fact that corn absorbs CO2. The point was that it produced more NOx pollutants than gasoline because of the chemical reactions. With all of that said, I still would rather see us running on home grown corn than the @#$%^&* arab oil even if it was less efficient. I am sure the cost would go down once there was competition.

Also, a hybrid running off pure alcohol and with variable displacement would have plenty of power and decent efficiency.


8 posted on 07/20/2005 2:56:39 PM PDT by jrestrepo
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To: Fog Nozzle
This little gem from Ms Iszler seems to contradict the laws of Physics. Scottie would have phasered her.

The truth is a gallon of ethanol contains at least 67 percent more energy than it takes to produce, according to the USDA.

9 posted on 07/20/2005 2:57:30 PM PDT by Fog Nozzle
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To: Fog Nozzle
more credible studies found ethanol delivers up to 60 percent more energy than the amount used in production.

If I understand this, he's claiming that if it takes the energy of one gallon of ethanol to make 1.6 gallons of ethanol. Is that just for fermenting and distilling or is he also including fertilizers, farming, and shipping the corn to the "Big Still"?

It would be interesting to see how much corn it takes to make that 1.6 gallons of ethanol (netting 0.6 after the energy used to create it is accounted for) and how much that corn would cost.

10 posted on 07/20/2005 2:58:22 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Bork should have had Kennedy's USSC seat and Kelo v. New London would have gone the other way.)
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To: Rakkasan1

Great graphic, I've stolen it for my collection.


11 posted on 07/20/2005 2:58:24 PM PDT by Fog Nozzle
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To: Fog Nozzle
This little gem from Ms Iszler seems to contradict the laws of Physics. Scottie would have phasered her.

>> The truth is a gallon of ethanol contains at least 67 percent more energy than it takes to produce, according to the USDA

Not really. The sun shines on the corn plants to make the sugar in the seeds. Thus the sun provides all of the energy. The 60 percent is just the how much energy you have left over after converting from one chemical fuel (sugar) to another (alcohol).

12 posted on 07/20/2005 3:02:33 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Bork should have had Kennedy's USSC seat and Kelo v. New London would have gone the other way.)
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To: jmyrlefuller
I don't like subsidies paying for it but I will happily support private industry doing the studies and development. Ethanol production will become more cost effective with time as all new technologies and industries do. Mass production of gasoline was pretty expensive in the early days as well. Fortunately the petroleum companies didn't face the regulations they face now.
13 posted on 07/20/2005 3:02:59 PM PDT by cripplecreek (If you must obey your party, may your chains rest lightly upon your shoulders.)
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To: jrestrepo

Somewhere in the Pimental/Patzek report was the comment to the effect that all the ethanol provided by corn would supply less than a day's energy needs of the U.S.


14 posted on 07/20/2005 3:04:01 PM PDT by Fog Nozzle
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To: Fog Nozzle
Brazil has gone to ethanol big time.
They believe they will be "free" of foreign oil dependence in a few years.
How are they doing it ?

"In contrast to U.S. corn-based ethanol, which requires substantial amounts of fossil fuel to plant, harvest and distill, Brazil's industry uses crushed sugar cane stalks known as bagasse to feed the steam boilers that power its mills and distilleries. The process is environmentally friendly and so efficient that these centers are generating more energy than they can use. Ethanol producers are supplying Brazil's grid with more than 600 megawatts of electricity. The near-term potential is at least 10 times that."

and why can't/don't we use sugar cane stalks ? probably because of the short growing season in the US

why don't we import ethanol ?

"The U.S. industry is loath to give up tariffs that protect it from cheaper alcohol from Brazil."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ethanol15jun15,0,3313642.story?track=tothtml
15 posted on 07/20/2005 3:06:09 PM PDT by stylin19a (In golf, some are long, I'm "Lama Long")
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To: stylin19a
Aside from the subsidies I doubt most people really care about ethanol. They will care more and more as gas prices continue to rise. As long as China and others industrialize, gas prices will continue to rise. As long as the population continues to grow, gas prices will continue to rise.

$1 per gallon gas is ancient history and $2 per gallon gas is fast becoming history. $10 per gallon gas sounds like some kind of sci fi nightmare but the prices will continue to rise. I support drilling in ANWAR but I don't think it will amount to much more than a couple of cent drop on the average.

Thinking we'll be using fossil fuels forever just isn't realistic.
16 posted on 07/20/2005 3:26:04 PM PDT by cripplecreek (If you must obey your party, may your chains rest lightly upon your shoulders.)
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To: Fog Nozzle
David Pimental of Cornell University and Tad Patzek of Berkeley

Cornell and Berkeley? The University of the City of Evil and the Berkeley Institute of Acid Hallucinations produced the report? This is very confusing, unless they collaborated on something they thought would help doom the nation...

17 posted on 07/20/2005 4:16:49 PM PDT by TheGeezer
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To: TheGeezer

Maybe they were drinking the stuff.


18 posted on 07/20/2005 4:48:54 PM PDT by Fog Nozzle
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To: TheGeezer
If you really want a flavor for Prof. Pimental's mindset, Google on "Pimental Vegetarian". This guy has a psychotic dislike of corn because it's used as an animal feed.
19 posted on 07/21/2005 7:32:23 AM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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