POLAND AND RUSSIA HAVE CONFLICTING STRATEGIC INTERESTS (Ukraine)

Rzeczpospolita, Polish News Bulletin, Warsaw, Poland | Jul 13, 2005 | Joanna Strzelczyk

[sergey1973]

=> Lukasz wrote: "They were kept in camps but not in concentration camps."

Lukasz--according to Webster definition of concentration camp:

concentration camp: a camp where persons (as prisoners of war, political prisoners, or refugees) are detained or confined.

Certainly Polish POW Camps were not nearly as bad as Nazi or Soviet GULAG's, and Soviet POW's were a part if defeated invading Army of Totalitarian Power. However, let's not change definitions for "political correctness".

[sergey1973]

"Soviet Union people was even poorer. Then Stalin decided istead of killing by hunger those polish POWS it is mrcier to shoot them. "

RusIvan, I'm sorry but you are telling a complete nonsense. Stalin Famines (like that In Ukraine and SOuthern Russia in 1932-1933) were artificially planned. Seizure of grain and livestock from farmers (so called "kulaks"), forced collectivization and other things is not the same as epidemy because of poor living antisanitary conditions.

[Tailgunner Joe]

Stalin made them in 1930th. SO they proclaimed themselves free.

You mean like Stalin gave Chechnya to Chechens? Should Chechnya be allowed to "proclaim themselves free?"

It is the height of hypocrisy for Russians to lament support of the Chechens when they themselves support separatists in Georgia. The butcher of Beslan Basayev even supported the Russian war on Georgia. He beheaded Christians in Abkhazia in the early nineties for his jihad. I don't support Chechens because I wouldn't want Russia to support separatist rebels in the USA. When you support the Abkhaz, you undermine the effort in Chechnya.

[anonymoussierra]

thank you all translation

"Let history speak for itself; I can bet you I can outperform your concept Rus for I have family who actually fought with Bolsheviks in 1918-20. What happened then has nothing to do of today. Listen well of all you: calm down; this can be twisted so many ways it makes lady in a park look like a victim of assassination. Rus keep in mind Jozef Pilsudzki
knew well before hand what is at stake. Lenin was running rampant destroying dignity of Russian people religion; should I go deep into historical facts and point to you what communist stands fore; let berry those who need to be berried."

[anonymoussierra]

cos dla was
http://www.sciagawa.pl/a/1947.html

[Lukasz]

Well, I think that this definition is nonsense. In Poland when you are saying “concentration camp”, you mean camp where planed extermination happened.

[RusIvan]

It was sarcasm on Lucasz's logic. Read our before posts.

[RusIvan]

You mean like Stalin gave Chechnya to Chechens? Should Chechnya be allowed to "proclaim themselves free?"==

Joe you should read more carefully:)).

I meant that Stalin made them A PART OF GEORGIA. Before it Abkhazies was not part of Georgia.
SO abkhazies go free when Soviet Union died.

It is the height of hypocrisy for Russians to lament support of the Chechens when they themselves support separatists in Georgia. ==

This pathetism ar edue to your misreadinmg Joe so Won't answer.

About chechens.
You maybe surprised but I support thier independence from Russia. I think that Putin made mistake by holding them.
They are alien people to russians.
(Accually same aliency as pakistani muslim bombers in London are citizens of Britain. So Russia doesn't make mistake bigger then Britain).

BUT before depart firstly chechens has to return the lands of Terek cossakcs which was given to them by Stalin (the north of river Terek and Sunzha).
I think it is fair. They go away but with those lands which they came. No extras.

[Lukasz]

One more thing about energetic issues, that story below is great example how Russia/Gazprom keeping its sphere of influence even if it is about allied government of Armenia.

Armenian opposition politician critical of ties with Russia

Yerevan, 27 June: "The much-talked about exclusive benefits from the strategic partnership between Russia and Armenia are nothing but speculation," the leader of the Liberal Progressive Party, Ovanes Ovanesyan, has said in an interview with Arminfo news agency.

"Armenia now buys gas from Russia at a cost of 73 dollars per 1,000 cu.m. The agreement on constructing a gas pipeline between Armenia and Iran is humiliating for Armenia because due to the pipe's narrow diameter only the Razdan thermal power station handed over to the Russian Federation will receive the gas. This will perpetuate Gazprom's [Russian state gas company] monopoly in Armenia. In two or three years the Armenian nuclear power station which works on Russian uranium will pose a serious threat to all life in Armenia. As a result, Armenia will become quite vulnerable in terms of its energy independence," Ovanesyan said. In his opinion, talks on building a gas pipeline from Iran to Ukraine through Georgia will further strengthen Armenia's isolation.

At the same time, Ovanesyan spoke highly of the European Union's programmes of creating alternative sources of energy in Armenia. He regards the Japanese credit allocated for upgrading the Yerevan thermal power station as the first step towards safer energy sources.

Incidentally, ArRosGazprom has been purchasing the gas at 54 dollars per 1,000 cu.m. since 2002, but selling it to consumers at 73 dollars per 1,000 cu.m. The world price of natural gas is 160 dollars per 1,000 cu.m.

[sergey1973]

"Well, I think that this definition is nonsense. In Poland when you are saying “concentration camp”, you mean camp where planed extermination happened."


No--of course not, Lukasz. You irresponsibly jumped to conclusions. However, I formulated my thoughts not well, and I should have said this:

Polish POW Concentration camps were definitely not extermination camps of Nazis or Labor-to-death camps of GULAGS. But still they were concentration camps by definition.

Anyway, I think you understand what I mean. Definitely Poland did not have camps designed for extermination. They were detention centers.

[anonymoussierra]

"Those who look in past are doomed. Relax your heart all of you and go further in journey of life for it is worth it to forgive and let it go. History is like boiling water of acid; love brings this to calm."

thank you all

[j24]

In Russia people doesn't know that they "conflict" with someone over Ukraine. So silly idea:)).

Typically Russian arrogance. "Russians don't know that they conflict" with Ukraine. Does it not matter that maybe Ukrainians think they have a conflict with Russia? Russians have only contempt for anyone who has no power.

[Tailgunner Joe]

I meant that Stalin made them A PART OF GEORGIA. Before it Abkhazies was not part of Georgia. SO abkhazies go free when Soviet Union died.

Yes this is the same logic that leads to the idea that Chechnya should "go free" now that the USSR is dead. The fact that you support Chechens just explains why you would also support their slaughter of Georgian Christians at Russia's behest.

[j24]

They lost everything they got during soviet times.

How stupid on their side. They shoud not have gone out of the USSR.

[sergey1973]

"Those who look in past are doomed. Relax your heart all of you and go further in journey of life for it is worth it to forgive and let it go. History is like boiling water of acid; love brings this to calm."


Very Good reminder ! Let's learn from the past but look toward future -:)))

[j24]

"If you are for freedom then you may support abhazies."

I think you are really for freedom. So you you are for freedom for Chechens, Tatars, Bashkirs, Chuvashs, Mordvins, Buryats, Balkars, Karachays, Nogays, Karachays, Kumyks, Altais, Khakasses, Shors, Tofalars (or Karagasys), and Tuvans (who inhabit the area once known as Tannu Tuva, annexed by the U.S.S.R. in 1944), the Sakha (Yakuts) Evenks, Evens, Buryats, Mari (formerly Cheremis), Udmurt (Votyak) and Komi (Zyryan), and the closely related Komi-Permyaks ,Karelians, Finns, and Veps ,the Mansi (Vogul) and Khanty (Ostyak) the Nenets , the Selkup around the middle Ob, and the Nganasan, Abaza, Adyghian, and Kabardian (Circassian) Avars, Lezgian, Dargwa, Lakk, Tabasaran, the Chukchi, Koryak, and Itelmen (Kamchadal) the Nivkh (Gilyak) along the lower Amur and on Sakhalin Island, of the Yukaghir of the Kolyma Lowland.

[j24]

Have I mentined 30% of them?

[RussianBoor]

Well, after reading the article and discussion:

Russia wants to keep Ukraine in its exclusive zone of influence and Poland perceives Ukraine as a EU member in the near future. Those two strategies are irreconcilable.

Absolutely wrong! The real situation is: Poland as well as some other EU member states and Brussels apparatchiks want to make Europe divided again, but now they want the new iron curtain built along the Russian borders. To advance their cause, they keep telling lies about "control" of Russia over Ukraine, Russian "aggressiveness", oil and gas "blackmail", etc. The real goal is to exclude Russia from building and keeping close relations with Europe. Such close relations are not in Poland's national interests because Poland then will stay forever a backward unimportant province of the EU. At the same time, close and conflict-free ties between Russia and EU are obviously beneficial to almost all European countries and the EU in general. Therefore, Poland is losing its positions in the EU. The real reason is not the issues of the past but that the EU's and Poland's interests are "irreconcilable".

Building new iron curtain is not in the interests of Ukraine either because then the strain between the West and the East of Ukraine may become unbearable. If Poland sincerely wishes Ukraine well it should stop pursuing policies which could easily result in breakup of this country. Exactly for that reason Russia works and will be working with Timoshenko and Yushchenko. Russia does not want to "control" Ukraine and never had (since at least 1992). At the same time, we do not want to loose our historic ties with Ukraine. We welcome Ukraine's stronger ties with Europe because such ties are our goal either. It is Poland who is trying to make these ties exclusive and "irreconcilable". So who "wants to keep Ukraine in its exclusive zone of influence"???

Poland's interests in Russia... are only THREE: [1] regulating the historical issues, [2] access to the Russian markets, and [3] supplies of Russian energy commodities.

Access to Russian markets... with WHAT? Except the Kaliningrad enclave, I do not know who in Russia may be interested in anything Poland can sell. Russian energy supplies...apparently, as follows from the discussion, Poland wants to get their supplies elsewhere and at the same time for whatever reason opposes the building of the Baltic pipeline. Why, guys? You wanna be independent? This pipeline will make you even more free and independent. Nobody will dominate your energy market (perceived Russian interest #1). That's a good deal, get off and forget about us and we'll forget about you with all your historical issues. Why not? As Rusivan has said, Russia has many things to do besides threatening Poland. Poland is Russian priority no. 999 out of 1000. However, we are interested in good relations with our Western European friends and we will not allow Poland and some other countries to spoil these relations.

[Wiz]

Thanks to anonymoussierra and Lukasz for the oil pipeline map. These are enough for me to imagine about the oilpipeline from the east into Europe, and I didn't meant to go in depth about the details so don't mind for the translation. It seems that there are various projects and the idea to connect pipeline from Bulgaria was needless with all these piprline projects proposed and benifit Poland.

By the way, I have noticed the Unocal that is attracting attention for China to purchase the firm was also involved in the investment of oil pipeline project in the Caucusus region (Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey) from Caspian Sea. China might be also targeting the oil pipeline projects in Central Asia heading west for its own purpose. I hope similar case would not happen to the pipeline projects toward Poland, which could allow China to politically influence the East European countries for having dominance over the pipeline. Oil Piepleine projects, Central Asia, East Europe, China, Russia, Unocal, Gasprov, I never had expected that all were connected by dots like this.

[RussianBoor]

So she need good and honest neibors who will buy and pay.

And do not steal gas and oil and do not disrupt shipments which is exported to other countries. Unfortunately, honest and friendly neighbors were always in a short supply, from the West especially.

I remember once taking a train from Moscow to Berlin instead of flying as usual. My God, what a nothingness lies between Russian and German borders... I remember advices never ever even think of going through Poland. Fly or at least take a ferry to Helsinki if you do not want to be cheated or robbed or run into other troubles. Little wonder Russia wants to built pipeline across the sea.