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Helium Evidence for A Young World Remains Crystal-Clear
Institute for Creation Research ^ | April 27, 2005 | D. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D. Institute for Creation Research

Posted on 05/19/2005 8:32:11 PM PDT by DannyTN

(I couldn't reproduce the charts so I recomend you follow the source URL and read the original PDF file.-DannyTN)

Helium Evidence for A Young World Remains Crystal-Clear


D. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D. Institute for Creation Research April 27, 2005, Copyright © 2005.

Recently an anti-creationist geochemist, a part-time instructor at the University of Kentucky named Kevin Henke,1 posted on the Internet a 25,000-word rejection2 of scientific evidence that the world is only about 6,000 years old, the helium-leak age of zircons (radioactive crystals) from deep underground. In politics, his procedure would be called “mud-slinging,” which in this case tries to bury truth under a mountain of minutiae. I normally don’t reply to Internet posts from skeptics because I want them to try to publish their criticisms in peer-reviewed scientific journals, the proper place to carry out scientific debates.

However, in this case I want to take the opportunity to share updated information about our research which will appear later this year in the RATE3 “results” book4 and in the accompanying book for laymen.5 I also plan to submit technical details of this reply to a peer-reviewed scientific journal, the Creation Research Society Quarterly (CRSQ). If Henke chooses to sling yet more mud, let him try to do so in a scientific journal. The RATE helium research has been peer-reviewed and published in several different scientific venues. Critics like Henke must gird up their loins and undergo the same kind of scientific discipline—if they want people to take them seriously. If they refuse to do that, I plan not to reply to them further.

First I’ll point out what it is that the skeptics are trying to obscure. Then I will go through Henke’s summary of his criticisms point-by-point. Amazingly, in his entire fifty pages he specifies only two real errors of mine: (a) I misspelled a name in one of my references, and (b) I was not precise enough in my geological description of a rock formation. The only other possibly significant items are (1) a quibble about how much helium should have been deposited in the zircons, and (2) a minor mistake I made (which Henke failed to discover) in summarizing our results. Last I’ll analyze Henke’s tactics and try to plumb his motives. Figure 1. Microscopic zircons. Photo by R. V. Gentry.

The evidence Henke wants to hide

I’ll try to keep this simple, so for the scientific details, please consult two most relevant publications, which are also archived on the Internet. I’ll call them ICC 2003 6 and CRSQ 2004.7 Decades ago, Robert Gentry analyzed tiny zircon (zirconium silicate) crystals recovered from hot Precambrian (over 545 million years old according to the geologic timescale) “basement” rock in New Mexico.8 Figure 1 shows some of the zircons he analyzed, between 50 and 75 microns (millionths of a meter) long.2

Enough of the uranium in the zircons had decayed to lead to give them a radioisotope (radioactive element) age of “1.5 billion” years. But Gentry found that up to 58% of the helium that the nuclear decay would deposit in the zircons was still in them. This was surprising, because helium diffuses (leaks) rapidly out of most minerals.

Not knowing how fast helium leaks from zircon, I estimated what the leak rates would be when we measured them. In essence (of course the math is more complicated), all I did to get the estimates was to divide the amount of helium lost from the crystal by the time (assumed by each model) during which it had been lost. That gives us the leak rates for each of the two models. The “1.5 billion year” model has rates over 100,000 times slower than the “6,000 year” model, because the former has to retain the helium for a much longer time. Then in the year 2000, the RATE group published the estimates as numerical predictions for those two models.9

Figure 2 shows the predictions as red and magenta diamond symbols. The bottom axis shows the temperature (in °C) of each sample in situ, that is, while it was in the granitic rock unit. (I have reversed the direction of temperature from what is traditional in such “Arrhenius” plots.) The vertical axis shows “diffusivity”, which is a measure of how fast helium leaks from a material. The vertical axis is tremendously compressed, representing a factor of one trillion increase in leakage rates from bottom to top. The black numbers under the diamonds are the percentages of helium retained in each sample.

The red and magenta vertical lines through the diamonds are the “two-sigma error bars”. These statistical error bounds were implicit in our reports, but we had not shown them explicitly in our graphs before now. The bars essentially show the 95% confidence limits I estimate for the accuracy of the predictions. The forthcoming RATE “results” book gives details on how I estimated the error bounds. Figure 2. Model-predicted (red and magenta diamonds) and measured (blue dots) helium leak rates of zircons. The data fit the 6,000-year prediction very well.

In 2001 we commissioned one of the world’s most respected experimenters in this field to measure the diffusivity of helium in the same-size zircons from the same borehole in the same rock formation. We used an existing mining company as an intermediary, and 3 we asked it to not tell the experimenter about us or our goals. The experimenter, being a uniformitarian (believer in long ages) and not having read our prediction, had no idea what results we were hoping for. It was a truly “blind” experiment, and we (the RATE team) were eagerly awaiting the data.

Figure 2 shows the experimental results as blue dots with blue “2-sigma error bars” going vertically through them. If we repeated the experiments hundreds of times, we estimate the data points would remain within the caps on the error bars over 95% of the time. Again, the RATE “results” book (which has now passed through extensive peer review and is being proofread) will have the details on the error estimates.

To our great delight, the data fell right on the “6,000 year” prediction! This alignment validates the young-age model even for readers who are not experts in this field, because the probability of such a lineup by accident is small. The data resoundingly reject the “1.5 billion year” model. The experimenter, whose name is in one of our articles, stands by his data, even though as a uniformitarian he does not like our interpretation of them. (Even after several years, he has not offered an alternative interpretation.)

This sequence of events places the burden of disproof on the critics, because they must explain how, if there is no truth to our model, the data “accidentally by sheer coincidence just happened by blind chance” to fall right on the predictions of our model.

Rebutting Henke’s Charges

In his abstract, Henke summarized his fifteen principal charges. I’ll number them and quote them, indented and in orange font. I’ll answer each charge with no more detail than necessary to dispose of it.

1. invoking groundless miracles to explain away U/Pb dates on zircons,

This means he does not find RATE’s “accelerated nuclear decay” hypothesis to his taste. But, as the ancient Romans said, “There’s no disputing about taste.” In other words, Henke’s personal preference in theories means exactly nothing to the rest of us. Moreover, it is beside the point. The main subject of my articles is the experimental data, and I offered only a few paragraphs about our hypothesis simply to explain what we think really happened. If Henke doesn’t like our explanation, let him offer his own. I’d be very interested to hear (preferably in a peer-reviewed scientific journal) how he thinks the zircons suffered 1.5 billion years worth of nuclear decay but only 6,000 years worth of helium losses!

2. misidentifying samples as originating from the Jemez Granodiorite,

Henke means that I didn’t specify that the top 1000 meters or so of the Precambrian granitic rock unit in question might contain gneiss or schist instead of granodiorite. What he doesn’t realize is that “Jemez Granodiorite” is a name I invented (since the literature had not previously named it) to apply to the whole unit from about 700 meters depth 4 down to below 4,310 meters. Our co-author John Baumgardner, a geophysicist, saw large portions of the GT-2 core at Los Alamos and picked our samples from it. He says:

Yes, there are occasional veins of material other than the coarse-grained granodiorite that forms the vast majority of the core. In making the selections I made of what samples to use, I purposely avoided these occasional veins. In fact I tried to select sections of the core well removed from such veins. So at least from my vantage point, the samples of core we used for the helium diffusion measurements were indeed coarse-grained granodiorite, not gneiss.

The important point is that, regardless of the name we put on the rock unit, the zircons throughout it have been measured to contain essentially the same amounts and ratios of lead isotopes,10 and therefore have undergone the same amount of nuclear decay. The uranium, helium, and lead levels in our samples are perfectly consistent with the corresponding levels Gentry reported for his. The effect of variation from sample to sample is probably smaller than the 2-sigma error bars around our prediction. So here Henke is making a distinction without a difference.

3. performing helium analyses on impure biotite separations,

That, of course, is a gratuitous slap at the quality of the ICR geological lab, which did that particular separation. In the lab’s defense, I would point out that their separation of biotite from another rock unit, the Beartooth Gneiss, was excellent. I’m judging that by the helium data from that unit in Appendix B of ICC 2003, which our experimenter called “remarkably linear”. Henke’s allegation is also unproven. Different localities, having different minerals, offer different degrees of difficulty with separation. The only way to gauge quality in this case would be to have another lab work on the same rocks and try to get a yet higher purity. I challenge Henke to procure his own samples of the same core from Los Alamos and to try to do a better separation himself!

However, haggling about the exact diffusivity of biotite is irrelevant, because as we pointed out in numerous parts of our articles, it is clear that that zircon has a diffusivity an order of magnitude lower than that of biotite in the low-temperature range of interest to us. That makes the diffusivity of zircon much more important to know accurately. Henke’s attack here is a good example of what I meant by “mud-slinging”—nasty, irrelevant, and intended to distract the readers from the important issues.

4. dubiously revising helium measurements from Gentry et al. (1982a),

On p. 16 of CRSQ 2004, in my notes in the reference “Gentry et al. 1982a”, I spelled out exactly why and how I, in consultation with Gentry, made two corrections in his tables (the main one being in the units he specified for his absolute amounts of helium). There is nothing dubious about it. Moreover, as I implied in that note, the corrections would not affect the main result of the paper, which depends on the percentage of helium retained, not the absolute amounts. Finally, as I pointed out on p. 9 of the same article, “the 6.3 ncc/µg yield of these zircons [our sample 2003] is quite consistent with Gentry’s data [as revised]”. Figure 7 on the same page shows how well the resulting 42% retention point interpolates between Gentry’s points 1 and 2. Without the revision, no interpolation at all would have been possible. That is very strong evidence that the correction was justified.

5. relying on questionable Q/Q0 (helium retention) values from Gentry et al. (1982a),

We checked Gentry’s values for retention with our own data on the zircons, as I wrote in CRSQ 2004. However I did not spell out the details of that calculation, so I plan to do that in the paper I intend to submit to CRSQ soon. Henke’s problem is with the value of Q0, as I will explain below.

6. failing to recognize that the Q0 values (maximum possible amount of radiogenic helium in a mineral) for their samples were probably much larger than 15 ncc STP/µg,

In his Appendix A Henke derives his value for Q0, 41 ncc/µg (1 ncc = 1 “nano-cc” = 10–9 cm3 at standard pressure and temperature, STP). He is in the right ball park, but he is probably using too small a value for the percentage of alpha particles (helium nuclei emitted by the nuclear decay) escaping the zircons. The percentage came from Gentry’s paper, but Gentry may have misstated what he meant by the number. From our own measurements of lead in zircons and my own very rough estimate of alpha particle losses, I got a Q0 considerably less than 25 ncc/µg. Gentry’s original calculations are no longer available. But after discussing the matter with him, I’m inclined to think that even if he had an error in Q0, the error canceled out when he calculated the ratio Q/Q0, which is the crucial quantity in this analysis. In support of that is the remarkable alignment of the diffusion measurements with the predictions in Figure 2. The paper I plan to submit to CRSQ will discuss this issue more fully.

However, even if Henke’s number were correct, it would reduce the percentage retentions by only a factor of two or so. That is not anywhere near the factor of about 100,000 reduction that Henke needs. Put another way, Henke’s values for retentions would not move the predictions outside the error bars Figure 2 shows. This is a molehill, not a mountain.

7. inconsistently interpreting already questionable helium concentrations from samples 5 and 6 to make them comply with the demands of their “models”,

I have already discussed this matter fully in sections 2 and 6 of ICC 2003. Sample 5 is the right-hand diamond of the predictions in Figure 2, the one at nearly 300°C with 0.1% retention. The fact that it fits the data so closely (one data point fell almost right on it) supports our interpretation. The total amount of helium in sample 6 supports our interpretation of that sample also. However, we could dispense with both samples entirely with no damage to our case at all. This is just another quibble about an inconsequential issue.

8. seriously underestimating the helium concentrations in the zircons from 750 meters depth and not realizing that their Q/Q0 value for this sample (using Q0 = 15 ncc STP/µg) would be greater than one and therefore spurious,

This is an interesting issue, if you like to delve into details. It turns out that the problem is not with the data itself, but rather with my summary of it, and the fact that Henke believed my summary uncritically! This all has to do with Appendix C in ICC 2003, where our experimenter reported that, “This sample has a very high helium yield, 540 nmol/gram”, and where he reported the amounts of helium liberated per step in the “Helium 4” column of Table C1. He did not report the units for that column, so I assumed they were also “nmol/g” and added those units to the label of the column. I also assumed that the numbers in that column added up to 540, so at the end of section 9 of ICC 2003, I reported that the experimenter was reporting “a partial (not exhaustive) yield of 540 nanomoles of helium per gram of zircon.”

However, it turns out that the units of the helium column should be “ncc”. When we divide the sum of the numbers in that column (1794 ncc) by the mass of the sample (350 micrograms), we get 5.126 ncc/µg. Multiply that by a conversion factor (0.4462 ×10-4 nmol/ncc) and convert micrograms to grams to get 228.7 nmol/g. Dividing that by 540 nmol/g gives us a ratio of 0.4235, which agrees exactly with the bottom entry of the “Cumulative fraction” column. This means that 540 nmol/g is the total yield after melting the crystals, not a partial yield.

Converting 540 nmol/g to 12.1 ncc/µg and dividing by Q0 = 15.0 ncc/µg gives us a retention for the 750 meter sample of 80.7 %. I reported that as “~80” in Table I of CRSQ 2004. (I used the “~” sign because as I reported in CRSQ 2004, p. 5, the average size of the zircons in the 750 meter sample is unknown, making detailed comparisons with the other samples inappropriate.)11 By that time our own sample 2003 (the one with 42% retention) had made me conclude that the 540 nmol/g in sample 2002 was a total yield, but I did not think of going back to Table C1 in ICC 2003 to check on things there.

The bottom line is that the retention fraction for the 750 meter sample is less than one, not “greater than one”, as Henke thought. I don’t blame him for being misled by my mistake, but perhaps he will want to blame himself. The critic wasn’t critical enough!

9. not properly considering the possible presence of extraneous (“excess”) 3He and 4He in their zircons,

Henke’s reason for raising this issue was his reasoning about the previous item. Because he thought that the retention fraction in sample 2002 was greater than 100%, he figured there had to be “excess” helium coming into the zircon from outside it. As the above item shows, his premise was wrong.

But let’s look at his scenario more closely. First, if the helium in the zircons were “excess” and came from outside them, it would have had to come through the biotite. As I pointed out on p. 9 of CRSQ 2004, the helium concentration in the biotite is two hundred times lower than the concentration in the zircon. That means, according to the laws of diffusion, that the helium is presently leaking out of the zircons into the biotite, not the other way around. Also, as I pointed out, the total amount of helium in the biotite is roughly the same as the helium lost from the zircon.

In Henke’s vague scenario, the source of the helium is “recent” (100,000 to 1.45 million years ago) volcanic magmas several kilometers away from our borehole. He is apparently assuming that conduits of such magma came relatively close to borehole GT-2. The conduits could not have broken through to the surface, because then they would have immediately vented their helium into the atmosphere. Henke wants “fluids” from the magma to carry helium through the mineral interfaces in the granodiorite, through the biotite, and into the zircons.

It is doubtful that such fluids could travel very far. First, the granodiorite is presently dry and well-consolidated, even at the surface. Second, the overlying rock puts the Jemez Granodiorite under in situ pressures hundreds to thousands of times greater than atmospheric pressure. Those factors would mean that the interface widths between minerals would be microscopic, perhaps only an Angstrom (the diameter of a hydrogen atom) or so. Henke needs to show—preferably with experimental data in a peer-reviewed scientific journal—just how far the helium could travel in this rock unit during the time he thinks is available. That would determine how close his conduits of magma would have to be. Then he would have to show geological evidence that conduits of basalt (solidified volcanic magma) presently exist within that distance of the borehole.

Next, Henke would have to show that the concentration (atoms or nanomoles per cc) of helium in the magmatic fluids could have been high enough to do the job. Our 15 ncc/µg value for Q0 in the zircons means there was at least 3140 nanomoles of helium per cubic centimeter in the zircons originally. (Henke’s value of “41” ncc/µg in item 6 above would require even more helium, 8590 nmol/cc.) The concentration in the assumed fluids would have to exceed that value in order to transfer helium from the fluid into the zircons. Yet the concentration of helium produced by uranium decay in typical basalt12 (and hence in basaltic magmatic fluids) would be less than 80 nmol/cc, more than forty times too small. No transfer would take place. So Henke’s scenario requires extraordinary amounts of helium in his magmatic fluids.

But let’s assume for the sake of argument that the helium somehow gets into the zircons. Now it has to stay there. The magmatic fluids would raise the temperature of the zircons considerably higher than their present temperature, and temperatures would remain high for dozens of millennia. As I showed in ICC 2003, section 7, the zircons would then lose essentially all their helium—contrary to what we observe. Moreover, most of the helium outside the zircons has to disappear somehow, so that the biotite concentration would drop to its present low level, hundreds of times less than the concentrations in the zircons.

Henke’s scenario is pure conjecture. It depends on unknown factors to produce improbable coincidences. Even though this is his best shot (that’s why I’ve spent some time on it), it falls far short of credibility.

All the data point to a much more straightforward scenario: the source of the helium is the observed nuclear decay in the zircon, the helium is diffusing as observed out of the zircon into the biotite, and according to the observed total quantities not much of it has gone beyond the biotite into the surrounding minerals.

10. listing the average date and standard deviation of their 2004 results as 6,000 ±2000 years, when [citing a two-] standard deviation (two-sigma) [error] of ±4000 years [would be] more appropriate.

(Brackets and black font show my clarification of Henke’s confused grammar.) This is entirely a matter of personal preference. I made clear that my date was plus or minus one standard deviation (one-sigma), so it is easy enough for people like Henke to multiply that number by two to get a two standard deviation (two-sigma) error more to their liking. However, this is again just a ridiculous quibble. One or two standard deviations pale into insignificance compared to the difference between the helium leak age and his preferred age of 1.5 billion years—a whopping 750,000 standard deviations!

11. “fudging” old Soviet data that should have been ignored,

So Henke believes inconvenient data should be “ignored”, does he? That offers insight into his attitude toward truth. Only people who blindly follow consensus thinking and modish fashions in science would dismiss data simply because it is “old”. The same kind of people try to find excuses to ignore data that go against the consensus opinion. That is exactly what Henke is trying to do with the helium data.

Henke’s word “fudging” is a lie about what we did, as anyone who wants to read section 5 of ICC 2003 can find out. As Figures 5 and 6(a) of that paper show, interpreting the ambiguous label of the Soviet graph in a reasonable way makes its high-temperature zircon data line up with everybody else’s zircon data.

But again, this is just a ridiculous quibble, because our conclusions depend in no way on the Soviet data. The purpose of section 5 was simply to explain why I didn’t understand those data until after we had made our own measurements.

12. deriving “models” that are based on several invalid assumptions (including constant temperature conditions over time, Q0 of 15 ncc STP/µg, and isotropic diffusion in biotite),

Henke is counting on his readers not to have read my papers carefully enough to know that I considered and discussed all the factors he mentions. I pointed out [ICC 2003, section 7] that, “Our assumption of constant temperatures is generous to uniformitarians.” That is because their thermal history models require a recent (by their timescale) pulse of high temperature which would wipe out all the helium in the zircons. I further pointed out that the zircons would have to be colder than dry ice [CRSQ 2004, p. 9] for most of their history in order to save the 1.5 billion year scenario, and no geologist would consider such a low temperature to be in the realm of possibility. As I said in item 6, Henke’s hoped-for value of Q0 would make no practical difference in our results. And I discussed the assumption of isotropic diffusion in biotite, showing that a more precise assumption would make no practical difference in our results. Biotite has hardly any effect on the outflow of helium from zircon, as we demonstrated. Again, this is a molehill, not a mountain. Finally, if I used such poor judgment in choosing the simplifying assumptions for my “6,000 year” model, how did it happen to anticipate the data in Figure 2 so exactly?

13. failing to provide standard deviations for biotite measurements (b values) and then misapplying the values to samples from different lithologies,

Again majoring on minors. As we pointed out in the papers, the diffusion rates for biotite and other micas were so much higher than the rates for zircon that it was clear the biotite affects our results to only a small degree. However, Henke has the raw data we published, so he can compute the standard deviations for himself.

14. inserting imaginary defect lines into Arrhenius plots,

The curve fits, which have no imagination, show a numerical change of slope in the zircon data between 200 and 300°C. It doesn’t take much imagination to see such a bend in Figure 2. The change of slope implies a change in the dominant physical mechanism of diffusion at that temperature. However, it does not matter in the least to our results whether we call the low-temperature part of the curve a “defect line” or not. Yet again, this is a ridiculous quibble.

15. deriving and using equations that yield inconsistent “dates.”

Equations are only as good as the numbers one plugs into them. Henke plugs garbage into the equations and gets garbage out. Figure 2 shows obvious-to-the-eye evidence for the dates I got. Notice how well the data fit the “6,000 year” prediction. Notice how far away the data are from the “1.5 billion year” prediction. All of Henke’s slung mud cannot obscure the obvious conclusion: the helium leak age is very much closer to 6,000 years than it is to 1.5 billion years.

That is the last of Henke’s summary. He makes other allegations throughout the paper, but evidently he did not think them good enough to put into his summary, so I’ll similarly disdain them.

Henke’s Tactics and Motives

The first thing to notice about Henke’s issues is how few of them there really are. For example, of the fifteen items above, six of them (4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 12) boil down to only one issue, how much helium was deposited in the zircons. Several other items repeated themselves similarly.

The second thing to notice is how peripheral they are. Not one of them has any chance of solving Henke’s real problem: how to keep helium in leaky minerals for over a billion years.

Third, notice how petty most of them are. One of my challenges in answering those charges was to find different words describing their basic character: “molehill, not a mountain ... distinction without a difference ... haggling ... ridiculous quibble ... inconsequential ... majoring on minors ... irrelevant”. Eight of the items (1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12) fall into that class.

But despite his scarcity of significant issues, Henke chose to puff them up to enormous proportions with a torrent of hot air—fifty single-spaced pages using up my printer supplies. Why? Well, of course he is trying to bluff his readers. Unless the reader is technically well-informed in this specialty and wants to take the time to examine Henke’s monograph carefully, he is apt to think that where there is so much verbal smoke there must be some factual fire.

However, I suggest there is a more basic reason for the inflation: Henke may be trying to reassure himself that he was correct in rejecting the Bible many years ago. This brings us into the area of motives, which require a lot of guesswork. But it is worthwhile to do so because people like Henke seem to be the worst enemies of creationism, and creationists need to understand that. In an Internet review13 of a book Henke contributed to, he asserts that he was once a sincere convert to Christianity but then “deconverted” himself:

I committed my life to Christ and I encouraged others to do so. However, after I read the Bible, and especially the false prophecies in Revelation and the countless contradictions in the Gospels, I realized that the claims of Christianity were false. (Emphasis mine).

The order of events here is interesting. First Henke commits his life to something or someone he considers Christ. Then he reads the Bible. That order is contrary to the order in 1 Peter 1:23, where the word of God causes the new birth:

For you have been born again, not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.

It is possible that Henke had some exposure to the word of God at the outset, enough that, like the rocky soil in the parable of the Sower, he and others like him “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:12). The previous verse (Luke 8:11) connects believing with being saved. If eternal life, after it begins with salvation, is truly eternal (some Christians might disagree with that), then someday Henke might be extremely shocked to find himself in heaven, though without rewards.

However, his hostility to Scripture when he encountered it is uncharacteristic of someone who has genuinely experienced the new birth. For example, after I was saved through reading the gospel of Mark and then accepting Christ as my Savior, my subsequent reaction to the rest of Scripture was the same as that of the prophet Jeremiah (15:16):

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

So it is possible that Henke did not have enough initial exposure to the word of God to be born “from above” (literal Greek of John 3:3) and merely made a shallow commitment to someone other than the real Jesus Christ—perhaps to a human authority figure, such as a parent, teacher, or pastor. Later on, when he encountered different authority figures, perhaps skeptic professors or persuasive friends, he then transferred his commitment to them, especially since their view was obviously the consensus.

Whether he was genuinely born again or not, his present symptoms might look the same to outside observers (and even to himself)—a severe allergic reaction to the Bible and to anyone saying it is straightforward and accurate.

The allergy shows itself in his strong objection (just before his conclusion) to my citation of 2 Peter 3:3-7 as a prophecy condemning uniformitarianism. The medication he takes for that malady is (foolishly) to swallow the claim of theologically liberal “higher critics” that 2 Peter is “probably a 2nd century forgery.” He doesn’t seem to see that their reasons for claiming that are specious, motivated by a desire to do away with all the supernatural events of Scripture, such as the virgin birth of Christ. We should not naively accept claims from people (such as Henke himself) with such motives.

Henke also doesn’t seem to see that the passage is remarkably accurate about the biggest intellectual blunder (uniformitarianism) of our age, a mistake characteristic of only the last two centuries since the time of Christ. That accuracy alone (which he inadvertently supports by his vehemence) would support its validity. Last, Henke would not like to hear that I have based a theory on the creation of planetary magnetic fields14 on part of the passage (2 Peter 3:5) he disparages, and that NASA spacecraft have confirmed the scientific predictions of that theory.

Because of his flight from Scripture, Henke has to keep reassuring himself that it can’t possibly be true. That is why he has so much spleen to vent when he encounters someone saying, “Here’s scientific evidence that the Biblical 6,000-year timescale is correct!” Henke cannot abide it; he must expunge it from his mind. His battle is not so much with creationists as with Christ himself. I’m glad that the Spirit of God may be using some of this crystal-clear zircon evidence to convict one who has fallen away from the truth.

____________________________

1 Kevin Henke, Part-Time Instructor in geological sciences, http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Geology/faculty/henke.html

2 Henke, K. R., Young-earth creationist helium diffusion “dates”, posted March 17, 2005 at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/helium/zircons.html See March 17, 2005 copy archived here. 12

3 An acronym for “Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth”, an eight-year research initiative sponsored by several creationist organizations. See http://www.icr.org/newsletters/research/researchoct01.html

4 Vardiman, L., A. A. Snelling, and E. F. Chaffin, editors., Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth: Results of a Young-Earth Creationist Initiative, Institute for Creation Research, El Cajon, California, and the Creation Research Society, St. Joseph, Missouri, expected publication date, on or before November 2005.

5 DeYoung, Don, Thousands not Billions, Master Books, Green Forest, Arkansas, expected publication date, on or before November 2005.

6 (ICC 2003) Humphreys, D. R., S. A. Austin, J. R. Baumgardner, and A. A. Snelling, Helium diffusion rates support accelerated nuclear decay, 2003a, in Proceedings of the Fifth International Conference on Creationism, edited by R. L. Ivey, Jr., Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, pp. 175-195, 2003. See http://www.icr.org/research/icc03/pdf/Helium_ICC_7-22-03.pdf .

7 (CRSQ 2004) Humphreys, D. R., S. A. Austin, J. R. Baumgardner, and A. A. Snelling, Helium diffusion age of 6,000 years supports accelerated nuclear decay, Creation Research Society Quarterly, 41(1), 1-16, 2004. See http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/41/41_1/Helium_lo_res.pdf .

8 Gentry, R. V., Glish, G. J., and McBay, E. H., Differential helium retention in zircons: implications for nuclear waste management, Geophysical Research Letters,

9(10), 1129-1130, 1982a. 9 Humphreys, D.R., Accelerated nuclear decay: a viable hypothesis?, in Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth: A Young-Earth Creationist Research Initiative, edited by L. Vardiman, A. A. Snelling, and E. F. Chaffin, Chapter 7, pp. 333-379, Institute for Creation Research and the Creation Research Society, San Diego, CA, 2000.

10 Gentry, R. V., T. J. Sworski, H. S. McKown, D. H. Smith, R. E. Eby, and W. H. Christie, Differential lead retention in zircons: implications for nuclear waste containment, Science, 216, 296-298, 1982.

11 For example, if the average length of zircons in that sample (number 2002) were larger than the average length in the other samples (about 60 microns), then the percentage of alpha particles retained would be higher. That would make Q0 higher than the value of 15 ncc/µg we used for the other samples, thus dropping the retention from 80.7 % to a smaller value. This affects Henke’s reasoning in item 8.

12 Stacey, F. D., Physics of the Earth, John Wiley and Sons, New York, p. 245, Table 9.3, 1969. The table says the average amount of uranium in basaltic crust is 0.8 ppm by weight. Assuming that at most an equal amount of uranium has already decayed to lead (the thorium, having a much greater half-life, would not have decayed nearly as much), and that all the helium produced thereby has remained in the basaltic magma, gives an average helium concentration of less than 80 nmol/g in such magmas.

13 Henke, K., Testimony to the failure of fundamentalism, posted December 31, 2001, http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AKAJJROZZM9M4/103-0783137-0663064?_encoding=UTF8 .

14 Humphreys, D. R., The creation of planetary magnetic fields, Creation Research Society Quarterly 21(3):140-149, December 1984. Archived at http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/21/21_3/21_3.html . 13

15 Humphreys, D. R., Beyond Neptune: Voyager II supports creation, ICR Impact, No. 203, May 1990, archived at http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/21/21_3/21_3.html .


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KEYWORDS: creation; crevolist; science; yec; youngearth
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To: flashbunny

I just read your profile page and saw where you like to use that bit of real-estate to belittle others. Why don't you stick to the threads at hand instead of carrying a grudge forward? Insecure?


21 posted on 05/19/2005 9:04:53 PM PDT by politicket (We now live in a society where "tolerance" is celebrated at the expense of moral correctness.)
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To: DannyTN
Folks can believe in Creationism if they like: no harm, no foul, but believing in Creationism is not--at least as I understand faith--a requirement of Christianity, nor are Christians required to reject outright the plausibility of evolution on the basis of someone's literal interpretation of the Book of Genesis. The wrong line in the sand is being drawn here, I think, by well-meaning people. While certainly no theologian myself, I believe in a God who created a universe bounded by laws, some of which, like gravity, we are only beginning to understand. But the Bible is not a science textbook, nor do I think it is intended to be used as such. I don't see, for example, that particular passage of the Good Book dealing with nuclear theory or describing the structure of DNA. Creationists and end-timers are spending entirely too much time and energy on things having no bearing on their relationship to their Creator. They are also successfully convincing nonbelievers that Christianity is incompatible with reason and the scientific method. So to all of those who demand specific, tit-for-tat explanations of why Creationism is so wrong-headed, please stop pestering school boards with demands for Creationist 'equal time', and please stop flooding us with verbose, pointless pseudo-science, and please stop pretending to speak for all Christians everywhere, because you aren't.
22 posted on 05/19/2005 9:08:19 PM PDT by Rembrandt_fan
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To: flashbunny; politicket
I got the reference.

Creationists are raised in a cukture free environment

23 posted on 05/19/2005 9:08:28 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools - Solon, Lawmaker of Athens)
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: politicket

labeling his comment "Christian" is a compliment undeserved.


25 posted on 05/19/2005 9:12:08 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: flashbunny; politicket

Just an opinion, but these threads might be more interesting if the "old earth" crowd were a bit less condescending (insulting?) and the "young earth" crowd were less grumpy/defensive/accusatory.

Could we agree that many in the "Young Earth" crowd (disclaimer: I am one) take science seriously and actually do "use the brains God gave them"?

Could we also agree that many in the "Old Earth" crowd actually take the Bible seriously and are convinced that an "old" earth fits with the Bible just fine?

If we can't do that we might as well just not talk about this topic at all. I suppose that's why this thread got banished to "Bloggers/Personal". Too bad.


26 posted on 05/19/2005 9:12:13 PM PDT by xjcsa (She died of loneliness...loneliness and rabies...)
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To: Rembrandt_fan

Agreed.


27 posted on 05/19/2005 9:14:17 PM PDT by ConservativeMind
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: bobbdobbs
But diffusion rate studies are pure science.

Yes, they are 'science'. However, some scientists hold that diffusion rates remain the same over time when these measurements have only been made over a very short span of time.

Also, assuming that the diffusion rates ARE the same over time then who is to say that a master Creator could not have put that in place at any time during His choosing?
29 posted on 05/19/2005 9:17:39 PM PDT by politicket (We now live in a society where "tolerance" is celebrated at the expense of moral correctness.)
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To: politicket
Easy, it's called catastrophic event. This formed suddenly, rather than over billions of years. Here are a few examples;

Coal beds: Southwest of Kansas City lies the Kansas Coal beds (actually all of Missouri overlies huge coal beds which are too deep to be economically competitive at present). Coal consists of enormous deposits of trees mixed with clays. Laboratory experiments have repeatedly demonstrated that these materials are transformed to coal in less than a year when heated slightly in the absence of oxygen. Modern peat beds tend to contain no clays, but coal has it homogeneously sprinkled throughout, indicating continuous volcanic activity during deposition. Many fossil species found in coal (such as Pine trees) prove it was never a swamp as popular theory requires. This, and much other evidence, clearly indicates coal materials were not formed in place, but were transported to the site by water. There is so much of this material that only a tremendously large water catastrophe could have been the agent that transported and deposited these materials. Only one historical event can possible explain these deposits, the Genesis Flood. Since coal is found throughout the fossil-bearing "geologic column," and since trees rot in about 20 years, guess what this evidence tells you about the maximum time in the "geologic column." Would you guess "500 million years" or "less than 20 years"?

Bethany Limestone. Some of the thickest beds of Bethany Limestone are found just below the surface of metropolitan Kansas City, which has become the center of underground storage, and underground manufacturing in the USA, and probably in the entire world. Vast passages have been mined out of the limestone of this area. Once believed to have required millions of years of deposition, it has been shown that the calcium found in limestone can come from hydrothermal springs and that the populations of some tiny marine creatures literally "explode" in conditions involving violent storms, high mineral concentration and "pollution", a concise description of Genesis Flood conditions.

Furthermore, using the latest geologic hydraulic modeling, geologist Steven Austin has demonstrated that the famous Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon (and beyond), had to have been deposited in about one day. His research made him somewhat famous in that he was the first of at least a thousand geologists who have studied the Redwall to discover a mass kill/burial of over a billion nautiloids in the Redwall Limestone. Furthermore, if you were on a jury and saw billions of large nautiloids (average nearly 3 feet long) buried, 15% standing on the point of their shell, and learned that hydraulic modeling required it all be deposited in a day, would you vote that the deposition and mass kill took 30 million years? The Bethany Limestone around Kansas City contains some of the same evidence as the Redwall of Grand Canyon.

Fossils. Many fossils are exposed in the numerous road cuts that occur where a road or highway cuts through hillsides near Kansas City. Fossil beds are never observed forming in present processes, and fossils clearly require rapid burial and solidification of surrounding material in order to preserve the creatures. Therefore each of these road cuts are full of evidence that the rock strata were all deposited rapidly.

The Ice Age. The Missouri River flows easterly from Kansas City to join the Mississippi River, just north of St. Louis, on the east edge of Missouri. The ice sheets that pushed down from the north advanced as far as this river. There are many evidences of glacial till to the north of the Missouri River, very few are found to the south. An ice age requires a warm ocean to produce the evaporation, to cause the snowfall, to produce the glaciers. Unfortunately for all old-earth theories, there seems to be no way to warm the ocean or to keep it warm for more than a few hundred years. The pre-flood environment hinted at in the Bible, a rapid, catastrophic flood accompanied by 25,000 miles of the "fountains of the great deep" and by thousands of active volcanos not only provides the raw material to produce enormous layers of sedimentary rock with mineralized creatures therein, but it produces a very warm ocean, volcanic dust hides the sun and produces an "ice age" lasting only about 500 years. The "ice age" was not bitterly cold, but was accompanied by enormous volumes of precipitation in a cooler climate. There were years where hundreds of feet of snow fell, and the summers were too short to melt much of it, so it melted slightly and compacted into ice sheets.

Missouri - "The Cave State" The area to the south of the Missouri River, in south central Missouri, is world famous for its outstanding examples of Karst topography - Caves, underground rivers, springs, sinkholes (collapsed caves) and natural bridges (partially collapsed caves). The Karst topography is only located south of the Missouri River, while the ice sheets stopped near the river. In other words, there seems to be a relationship between nearby ice sheets and Missouri Karst. Popular theory holds that Karst and caves were formed by rain water absorbing carbon dioxide from bacteria as they decompose organic matter, thus the water becomes slightly acid. We show that this popular theory is seriously flawed. First, field and laboratory experiments (many in Europe) have clearly demonstrated that acidic water inserted at the surface loses its acidity long before it can penetrate deeply. Acid inserted from the surface tends to eat rock laterally, not down. But thousands of caves go very deep, and countless caves are literally vertical shafts. Both are impossible in popular theory! While the nearness of the Ice Sheet seems to have been a partial cause of the "decoration" of Missouri caves, and some of the small Karst features, the primary cause of Karst was "the fountains of the great deep" (Genesis 7:11 - 8:2). Superheated (above the boiling point) water is also a "super solvent"! Such hydrothermal vents (the popular term today) would both dissolve and erode limestone and dolomite rocks in short order. The largest caves in the American southwest could easily have formed in weeks! The "decoration" of these caves with stalagmites, etc. probably took less than 100 years.

Igneous Rock of Southeast Missouri is quite different from that of the Karst area in the center of the state. The igneous rock that makes up Taum Sauk Mountain is popularly believed to be some of the oldest rock in Missouri (over a billion years), and is also at the highest elevation in the state. These granites and rhyolites are popularly touted as "proof" of millions of years of cooling by thermal conduction. However, it has recently been shown that granites are laced with cracks that show evidence of water passage. Thus, convection, not conduction, was the primary cooling method, dropping the cooling time to a few hundred years. Since these granites intrude into Flood strata, it is obvious that, at least many of them, formed during the Genesis Flood which produced enough geologic violence to release great quantities of magma.

Iron and Other Ores. There were many mining operations in SE Missouri and much ore remains. Possibly the largest and richest iron ore deposit in the world is at Pea Ridge in SE Missouri (About 1200 feet down. Again, too deep to be currently competitive). Major ore deposits are found in areas made up of igneous rock. This evidence points to previous volcanic activity in the area in the not too distant past. Popular theory falls short of a good explanation of these ore deposits, but Flood Geology and Catastrophic Plate Tectonics of modern creation theory, accompanied by countless "fountains of the great deep" provide a simple, straightforward explanation of ore deposits among granites. The ores were brought up by the hot fountains and deposited quickly as the waters mixed with cool surface water and air. Cracks in the hot lava (future-granites) provided pathways for water to be ejected skyward to enormous heights. Much heat was radiated to space, minerals fell as small particles to mix with surface soils, the water returned as voluminous quantities of rain, snow and ice. Cooler climate due to all the volcanic ash in the upper atmosphere, blocking the sun, prevented complete snow melt during shorter summers... thus, an Ice Age.

Catastrophic Tectonic Activity. Not far away is the New Madrid (SE Missouri) Fault line, along the Mississippi River. This is supposedly some of the "youngest rock" in the Midwest, and is at a much lower elevation than the top of Taum Sauk Mountain (the "oldest rock in Missouri"). We are quite convinced that geologic plates formed and moved to their present location in far less than a single year, during the Genesis Flood. This has been numerically modeled. It is not just "possible," but the most reasonable explanation.

Viking Activity in Missouri. Kansas City lies at the edge of the area that was once explored by Vikings who came down from the north, through Hudson Bay. At that time, the northern Midwest was much lower in elevation, probably close to sea level. The Vikings left evidence of their explorations when and where ever they tied up their long boats. Numerous Viking mooring stones have been discovered in Minnesota, Western Iowa, and as far south as Joplin Missouri. These are identical to Viking mooring stones that can be found along the Scandinavian and European coasts and inland rivers where the Vikings traveled and left their mark. Some of the Vikings left inscriptions chiseled in stone using runic writing, and even dated their visits to the second millennium of the "Year of our LORD." Since the ice sheets have receded and melted, the land of the upper Midwest has bounced back up, i.e., it has risen in elevation, so that it is no longer at sea level.

Hutchinson, Kansas, is sitting on vast deposits of solid rock salt. This salt is being mined today for modern use. The popular story of salt formation is that it evaporated from tidal pools in ancient seas. But Kansas deposits and others around the world are too vast and too pure to be explained by evaporation. It is now known that superheated water from deep in the earth is a super solvent. It will dissolve almost anything, but when it cools it drops most of its mineral load instantly. Evidence of rapid salt formation includes huge salt domes in various places, including Mississippi, which could not have been formed by evaporation, but were undoubtedly created by enormous fountains of the great deep ejecting heavily mineralized water. Rapid formation is also obvious due to lack of fossils, and purity of the salt. If formation took millions of years, the salt would contain many fossils and impurities.

Kansas Chalk: Western Kansas is known as the High Prairie, or High Plains. Today the area around Hays and Oakley, Kansas is known for chalk beds that contain fossilized remains of fish, and other sea creatures. The famous "fish-in-a-fish" fossil is currently on display in the Sternberg Museum, in Hays, Kansas. Chalk was once considered a "proof " of millions of years, but it has now been shown that conditions described in the Genesis Flood could have produced all the small critters found in the world's chalk formations in as little as 2.5 days! Fossilization of very large creatures in the chalk is further evidence of catastrophic deposition of the chalk.

In Oakley, Kansas, the Ficke Museum is home to many fossil fish and myriad shark's teeth in their permanent exhibits. The fossils were found in chalk deposits in that area, on either side of the Smoky Hills River Valley. Large, picturesque chalk "pyramids" and other chalk formations of western Kansas give ample testimony to their brief history. In the short span of less than a century, the most famous of these has deteriorated by about 50%!

NO hit and run here. There are countless other examples of catastrophic evidence, disproving the "billion's of years" theories.

30 posted on 05/19/2005 9:18:42 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: Rembrandt_fan
but believing in Creationism is not--at least as I understand faith--a requirement of Christianity,

I'm willing to hear what you do think is a Christian requirement. Believing in a God does not make one a Christian.

please stop flooding us

Who is this "us" you speak of...are you calling yourself a Christian?

Provide some clarity here for me please.

31 posted on 05/19/2005 9:19:34 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: xjcsa
I suppose that's why this thread got banished to "Bloggers/Personal". Too bad.

I will not back off of speaking biblical truth.

The reason that this got sent to Bloggers/Personal is because the forum Admin is not interested in the topic. Too bad, since it is much more important than many of the current 'Breaking News' threads. However, it is not my forum and I completely respect their decision.
32 posted on 05/19/2005 9:20:14 PM PDT by politicket (We now live in a society where "tolerance" is celebrated at the expense of moral correctness.)
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To: bobbdobbs

nope, sorry...with comments like that you do yourself a disservice.


33 posted on 05/19/2005 9:20:59 PM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: Rembrandt_fan
"but believing in Creationism is not--at least as I understand faith--a requirement of Christianity, "

No, it's not. However since Jesus specifically mentioned Creation, it certainly puts a dent in the credibility of the scriptures both old and new.

>"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female’ (Mark 10:6).

Notice that what Jesus said, doesn't match evolutionary theory at all.

What's more Peter warns us in 2 Peter 3 of the dangers of adopting a Uniformitarian belief. Specifically it will cause people to forget creation and the flood. And what has happened 1800-2000 years later? Uniformitarians have forgotten creation and the flood.

"But the Bible is not a science textbook, nor do I think it is intended to be used as such."

Indeed not. God clearly did not reveal all that He knows and he tells us that. In fact in the story of Babel he intentionally foiled the progress of man. So it's clear that God holds back knowledge. However, you do expect that what God says will be accurate. He might dumb things down for us, but he will do it in a way that is not technically wrong.

"Creationists and end-timers are spending entirely too much time and energy on things having no bearing on their relationship to their Creator."

Wrong. There is a reason the Bible starts out with Genesis and the creation account. It's IMPORTANT!!!.

There is a reason why Exekiel spends several chapters on the end time, and many prophets including Daniel, Isaiah, and Zechariah talk about the end times. There is a reason why Jesus, Peter, and the Apostle Paul talked about the end times. They are IMPORTANT!!! If we are right about the rapture removing most Christians from the earth prior to the Great Tribulation, the message that we've spread about the end-times may be one of the most important evidences available to those left behind.

If you mean by your assertion that we shouldn't spend time on those and ignore the gospel, then your point is well taken. The gospel is certainly more important than setting the record straight on Creation or understanding the end time prophecies. But we should do all three.

"They are also successfully convincing nonbelievers that Christianity is incompatible with reason and the scientific method."

Some may come to that conclusion. That's certainly the portrait that evolutionists want to paint. But truth is truth. The professor who wrote this article and did this research applied the scientific method. And they found evidence that called for a new interpretation of previous observations. That is the scientific method, and we shouldn't let uniformists bully or badmouth us into abandoning the scientific method.

"So to all of those who demand specific, tit-for-tat explanations of why Creationism is so wrong-headed, please stop pestering school boards with demands for Creationist 'equal time', and please stop flooding us with verbose, pointless pseudo-science, and please stop pretending to speak for all Christians everywhere, because you aren't."

Well you certainly aren't speaking for all Christians either.

34 posted on 05/19/2005 9:33:09 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: ConservativeMind
"There are surely other plausible explanations, including aliens from the third planet of Zentari that wished the world into being only 500 million years ago and then time-warped it over the course of three days to what we now know as about 1864."

plausible...but then the Zentarians never dealt with me personally like God did.

35 posted on 05/19/2005 9:36:16 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: Rembrandt_fan

Pehaps some are, but they aren't taking heed to the words of the fathers of the church. The church embraces science, as science is a means in which to establish truth. since God is truth, the church has nothing to fear. Whenever we discover a truth, we discover something God made. You are quite right in opinion that the bible is not a science book. It was never meant to be. But God's word is truth. Is the earth 6000 years old? It can't be, and there isn't hint in the bible that it is. It only says God created all what we can see in 7 days, which some ASSUME each day was 1000 years. In the bible however, God can make one day into two. it also isn't clear that this creation process was done on consecutive days. Food for thought. it doesn't really matter, because we only have our lifetime to get our act together if we want our spirit to live forever in his kingdom. Our bodies are only a temporary vessel for it. It's also clear God made us in his image, a point people overlook is that god gave us our "clothes of skin" AFTER the fatal sin. This leads us to believe our spiritual form which is in a dimension we cannot see is what God created in his image.
I guesss there is only one way to find out, isn't there. The argument will never be settled on earth.
As far as the end of time as we know it goes, That's what God said will happen, so we have to believe it.
Faith. The human experience relies on it, and just isn't complete without it.


36 posted on 05/19/2005 9:41:08 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: DannyTN
Notice that what Jesus said, doesn't match evolutionary theory at all.

Please refer to it in its proper format: "Evolutionary Hypothesis". So, instead of TOE, it should be HOE.

The Hypothesis of Evolution does not rise to the scientific standards of a theory.
37 posted on 05/19/2005 9:42:24 PM PDT by politicket (We now live in a society where "tolerance" is celebrated at the expense of moral correctness.)
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To: wallcrawlr

Christ enjoined us to be as children, but as St. Paul pointed out, the Lord didn't mean that we should be either naive or simple-minded--or, to draw an implicit conclusion, incapable of understanding or recognizing an allegory when we see one. The Word tends to speak in allegory and parable so that we can grasp certain essential spiritual truths. I notice, too, that your query had a certain inquisitorial tenor: "Who is this "us" you speak of...are you calling yourself a Christian?" My post was clearly worded, but I'll clarify even more: sure, I'm a professed and believing Christian. The 'us' to whom I was referring are those--like myself--who believe in Christ, yet find the literalist arguments simplistic and--in some cases--patently absurd.


38 posted on 05/19/2005 9:44:41 PM PDT by Rembrandt_fan
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To: Nathan Zachary
The church embraces science, as science is a means in which to establish truth.

It's fine if you want to believe in the "Hypothesis of Evolution" (HOE®)

Just don't raise it to the standards of a theory, since it can't meet those standards.
39 posted on 05/19/2005 9:45:30 PM PDT by politicket (We now live in a society where "tolerance" is celebrated at the expense of moral correctness.)
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To: politicket
Please refer to it in its proper format: "Evolutionary Hypothesis". So, instead of TOE, it should be HOE. The Hypothesis of Evolution does not rise to the scientific standards of a theory.

Point taken

I agree with you. Macroevolution is not a theory, but a hypothesis with more evidence against it than for it.

40 posted on 05/19/2005 9:46:21 PM PDT by DannyTN
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