Posted on 04/16/2005 7:38:03 AM PDT by truthfinder9
David Limbaugh wrote the book Persecution not long ago about the infringement of the rights of Christians wanting to worship and believe as they chose. So when I heard that Marty Minto, talk show host for Christian WORD-FM in Pittsburgh, was fired for asking if the Pope was going to heaven, I couldn’t believe that this man’s freedom of speech had been so blatantly violated by other Christians.
After taking a call asking about the Pope, Minto said he didn’t know if the Pope was born again. The Bible writes that you have to be born again to secure salvation. Minto is an evangelical Christian, but you don’t have to be evangelical to be saved (and, by the way, there is an evangelical wing of the Roman Catholic church). Being born again is about accepting Christ as your savior and having faith in him.
Official Roman Catholic doctrine states this just as their Protestant brothers do. The long-running misconception about Catholics putting works first is misleading. They make some subtle distinctions about works after the fact.
I believe the Pope did go to heaven. I have seen no reason to believe otherwise. He embodied both the intellectual and mystic traditions of Christianity. The former being seen in the Pope’s recognition of the members of the Protestant and Eastern Orthodox branches as parts of Christianity. The latter being seen in the hours he spent in prayer every day. These aren’t reasons why he did go to heaven, but reasons why he wasn’t the archenemy of the Protestant denominations.
However, these aren’t the issues at hand. In an era where Christianity is reclaiming its historic position in cultural and intellectual thought, for Christians to fire another Christian for asking questions is absurd. Like I said, it was a blatant violation of his freedom of speech. He wasn’t being disrespectful or hostile from what I have read. Also, from what Minto has said, the radio station has been trying to become more politically correct. It seems WORD-FM has taken a giant leap backwards against the progress made in recent times in Christians taking seriously their mandates to engage the world. The “scandal of the evangelical mind” is apparently alive and well at WORD-FM. I’ve never listened to that radio station. Doesn’t look like I will anytime soon.
I always thought the definition of a Christian was someone who asks Jesus Christ to be his personal lord and savior. Nothing in my Catholic upbringing encouraged me to do that. I only found this out when I became a Protestant and always assumed unsaved Catholics went to a rather warm place for all eternity. So I guess the question is...did the Pope ask JC to be his personal lord and savior?
Thank you Erik!!!
I got involved with another FReeper on another thread (plus in private FR mail) regarding this same subject! The guy ended up calling me a liar, because HE never knew any Catholics who did not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.
I was a Catholic until age 35, and had never EVER been exposed to a Bible in all of my Catholic teachings. And Catholic churches around here still preach salvation by works. I now attend Bible church service and am grateful for my conversion from Catholicism, as I know there is so much more to God and His ways than what I was earlier taught.
You're welcome! My experience with Catholicism was you went to church on Saturday to confess, but I don't see anything in the Bible about confessing to another human. The priest then tells you to say x number of Hail Marys, but wait a minute! Why am I praying to Mary? That's idol worship! Then we went to church on Sunday to hear a bunch of gobbledygook in some foreign language and take communion. But the Church says you are eating Christ. Well, that's cannibilism. The wafer and wine are symbolic of Christ, they are not Christ. Then we'd throw a couple of bucks into the offering basket and call it a day! And that was it. Repeat once a week for life. By the time I had some Protestants tell me the truth about the bible I had already left Catholicism behind in the dust, as it was totally devoid of any meaning or spirituality. I was at a funeral in a Catholic church recently and found the whole thing totally bizarre, including the church itself. The whole experience made me realize how wonderful it was not being a Catholic!
I see more intense bashing of Christians by other Christians than by non-believers like me.
Darkwolf,
I am not bashing Catholics. I am just stating that MY experience as a Catholic was very lacking. And the churches around here STILL do not teach salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. They instead preach salvation by works, and do not at all emphasize salavation and the eternal life that ensues by the completed work of Jesus Christ at the Cross.
My experience came from attending Catholic school as a child and church as an adult. But my recent experiences arise from discussions I've had with Catholics and from attending wedding and funeral services for the Catholics that I know.
I just find the anti-Catholic rhetoric amusing because it completely contradicts my personal knowledge; seeing how distant I am from the church, I can't believe my experience is so atypical. But your mileage varies, of course, and ALL followers are of course convinced that THEIR version of Christianity is THE version.
What's ;your definition of works? Food pantry's, generositiy to those less fortunate, living as sinless a life as possible and still striving?
"Works" just means ANYTHING that WE do. The concept of salvation as portrayed in the Bible is accomplished only by one's belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
What about Paul's missive in Corithians I Chapter 6? Would those be considered works?
I hope that I did not exhibit any "glee" in any of my posts. As I stated, most of the Catholics at the churches in my area do not place their salvation on the redemptive work of Jesus Christ.
The fact that Catholic FReepers have written to state that they DO in fact look to Jesus for their salvation is good news to me, especially since there are so many Catholics throughout the world. So apparently a lot of the false teaching and lack of emphasis on the Bible may be limited to the geographic area in which I live.
1 Corinthians 6 (NIV)
Lawsuits Among Believers
1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church![a] 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another–and this in front of unbelievers!
7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Sexual Immorality
12“Everything is permissible for me”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”–but I will not be mastered by anything. 13“Food for the stomach and the stomach for food”–but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[b] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
The argument among many Christians is that once salvation is earned, no one can take it away. I believe there is a verse that basically in my paraphrased way states that. Thus, the once saved always saved culture. And since we are not perfect and cannot be perfect, they believe that through grace, we don't have to worry so much about the sins of the flesh. But since Paul is telling believers, followers and people of faith how to live their life, he states that people who engage in such activities will inherit the kingdom of God. To me, since the Bible must be taken as a whole is that no one can take our grace and salvation from us, but by our works, we could not inherit the kingdom of God. Thus the scripture, as I see it, says that no one external to us can take away our salvation, but that we can put it in peril by be engaging in those activities in 9-11 and others related in the scriptures that Paul gives us. Many churches and believers believe he is only adressing those that are unsaved. He usually designates when he is speaking to believers and non believers (saved vs unsaved). In these scriptures, he is addressing the church, those who believe and are not living the works (life of someone dedicated to the closest walk to God as possible).
Joann, did you go to mass? I only ask because you stated that you weren't exposed to the Bible during your 35 years. First, the Bible originally came FROM the Catholic Church, and the liturgy of the mass is full of scripture from beginning to end. All 3 readings during mass are from the Old Testament, New Testament, and the Psalms. I experience a "living Bible" everytime I go to Mass.
I am sorry that you did not see what I see; and I'm sorry that you are depriving yourself of the Eucharist, that is a tragedy in itself.
p.s. I am NOT trying to provoke or antagonize at all. This is just coming from someone who loves, treasures and truly values her catholic faith, that's all.
"I wonder how many Catholics might have stopped listening if he'd been allowed to stay? If I were given the choice between firing him and staying on the air I'd definitely send him packing."
That's my thought too. Radio stations are a business proposition, and if the nitwit radio personality might have alienated listeners and advertisers then he needed to go. There is no shortage of people who want to be radio personalities (and have the skill to do so). It's an employers' market.
""Works" just means ANYTHING that WE do. The concept of salvation as portrayed in the Bible is accomplished only by one's belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior."
If I were still Catholic I'd point you to the Book of James 2, 14-17. There is no true belief without works. But since I'm agnostic, I'll let it slide.
whether catholic or protestant, how can ANYONE know for CERTAIN the heart of their fellow man and what exactly they might place their faith in for salvation?
simply because one individual was not growing spiritually in a particular church/denomination, does NOT mean that another person might flourish in that same setting, not to mention what many people pursue on their own time and study
many on this post almost sound like you are able to give someone their next destination the moment before they leave this world
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