What to do about Chechnya after Maskhadov ?

"...my reaction was quite a mixed one."

I was elated.

The relevant question to ask is NOT "What to do with Chechnya" but rather "What to do with the muslims Chechnya".

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Right there, it becomes very difficult to take you seriously. You instantly show the reader you are biased to one side and a side that is not supported by fact, not in the least. The second Chechin war was started under the invasion of the Chechin Prime Minister into Daghistan. For a week the Federal government did nothing not wanting to begin another war, while Mashkodov equally did nothing to reign in Baseyov who was butchering resisting villages and fighting the Daghistani provincial militia. That is a historic fact, as is the fact that the apartment explosions happened 3 months after the war started and thus had nothing to do with the war's beginning. Oh and Putin was not Prime Minister at that point but deputy Prime Minister.

Furthermore, a Russian general was sent in as an emergency negotiator to Mashkedov. On his way back to the airport, he was ambushed, kidnapped and executed. That was the end of negotiations.

If Mashkedov, elected or not (never mind his term ran out 2 years ago, could do nothing to control his Prime Minister, let alone the other gangs and clans, what was his word worth in any negotiations? He was ineffectual at best.

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Here you are sinking damned low. Considering the documented autrocities of the Chechins you are out of credibility. There is abuses, these are not systematic but spring from a lack of discipline and professionalism and scared young men, just like in Vietnam and all such wars where conscripts are used against an unseen enemy.

Have you ever served in the military? You definitly do not sound like you have military experience, while talking about military experience. Sorry, but that's exactly how you're coming across.

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You obviously aren't talking about Chechins. Yes they were not religious fanatics, that however has not made and then did not make a single difference in their ruthlessness and slyness. As for Imperial tactics, not quite. The Russian empire conquered Chechnya by destroying their villages, moving the population to Russian fortresses, burning down the forests and building roads everywhere. This was after 100 years of failed counter raids as revenge on the Chechin slave raids (their markets being Persia and Khiva) against Russians, Ossessians, Abhazians, Georgians and Armenians. By the way, Stalin collected the lot of them up in 24 hours for deportation.

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Urban myth, there is very little oil left in Chechnya and all of it is in the northern plains, which were not Chechin until the 1920s when they allied with Stalin exterminated the Tarek Cossaks, who built Grozny.

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You see, you conduct none stop personal attacks and then expect to be taken seriously. Oh and paragraphs are our friends.

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Which of that quarter is the 200,000 living in Moscow? Where are you coming up with this? Yes, there have been 200,000 dead in 10 years of war, hardly genocide. 400,000 Chechins fled Chechnya in 1993 along with 450,000 Russians, Jews, Georgians and Armenians. Really, do look these figures up. You are making emotional comments which is how the left works, emotions with no anchor in reality.

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You do realize those pro-Moscow armed units are Chechin, right? Just like their government. Mashkedov murdered Kadorov who was not only the elected president but also the Grand Mufti and a former Chechin war hero who in his own words went to Moscow's side because the Wahhabies came in and took everything over.

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Welp, knew the obligatory leftist Hitler comparison had to come up. If you haven't figured it out, the left just loves this one and that is exactly how you sound. Hitler hugh, so where are the concentration camps and how come 700,000 out of 900,000 Chechins are still alive after 10 years? Ghangus Khan? So all the Chechin cities have been burnt down? The nobles/leaders crushed under the gates with herds of horses? All the males above a wagon wheel's height beheaded? All the women and children sold off to slavery?

I'm not going to bother with the second half of a hit piece. You want my advice? The people on FR are smarter then you give them credit for. Many of us are married to Russians, travelled to Russia, know lots of Russians, are former military, are history buffs, politics buffs or just read a lot.

Defending terrorists isn't going to win you browny points, especially using the Left's tried and true arguments.

Also I have a deep anger at the Kremlin thugs for starting twice in the past decade despicably savage, barbaric and callous Chechen Wars.

Right there, it becomes very difficult to take you seriously. You instantly show the reader you are biased to one side and a side that is not supported by fact, not in the least. The second Chechin war was started under the invasion of the Chechin Prime Minister into Daghistan. For a week the Federal government did nothing not wanting to begin another war, while Mashkodov equally did nothing to reign in Baseyov who was butchering resisting villages and fighting the Daghistani provincial militia. That is a historic fact, as is the fact that the apartment explosions happened 3 months after the war started and thus had nothing to do with the war's beginning. Oh and Putin was not Prime Minister at that point but deputy Prime Minister.

Furthermore, a Russian general was sent in as an emergency negotiator to Mashkedov. On his way back to the airport, he was ambushed, kidnapped and executed. That was the end of negotiations.

If Mashkedov, elected or not (never mind his term ran out 2 years ago, could do nothing to control his Prime Minister, let alone the other gangs and clans, what was his word worth in any negotiations? He was ineffectual at best.

The behavior of many Russian forces in these wars is nothing less then a disgusting barbarism that makes them even worse than Islamist-separatist-terrorist insurgents they are fighting with.

Here you are sinking damned low. Considering the documented autrocities of the Chechins you are out of credibility. There is abuses, these are not systematic but spring from a lack of discipline and professionalism and scared young men, just like in Vietnam and all such wars where conscripts are used against an unseen enemy.

Have you ever served in the military? You definitly do not sound like you have military experience, while talking about military experience. Sorry, but that's exactly how you're coming across.

The Putin-Yeltsin-Kremlin mafia neglected profoundly effective old-fashioned Imperial tactic of dealing with barbarians- divide [seduce, entice] and conquer. Neither Aslan Maskhadov, nor his predecessor Johar Dudayev were fanatical Islamists. They were both retired high-ranking Soviet Military officers with a normal Soviet mentality.

You obviously aren't talking about Chechins. Yes they were not religious fanatics, that however has not made and then did not make a single difference in their ruthlessness and slyness. As for Imperial tactics, not quite. The Russian empire conquered Chechnya by destroying their villages, moving the population to Russian fortresses, burning down the forests and building roads everywhere. This was after 100 years of failed counter raids as revenge on the Chechin slave raids (their markets being Persia and Khiva) against Russians, Ossessians, Abhazians, Georgians and Armenians. By the way, Stalin collected the lot of them up in 24 hours for deportation.

They could have been brought to the Kremlin fold with numerous perks, including high governmental posts, large share of the oil proceeds, etc.

Urban myth, there is very little oil left in Chechnya and all of it is in the northern plains, which were not Chechin until the 1920s when they allied with Stalin exterminated the Tarek Cossaks, who built Grozny.

the Kremlin gremlins had consistently been choosing the worst possible.

You see, you conduct none stop personal attacks and then expect to be taken seriously. Oh and paragraphs are our friends.

The results are horrifying--the quarter of pre-1994 1 million large Chechen population are dead, another quarter are refugees or internally displaced persons, and the rest is simply reduced to substinent living.

Which of that quarter is the 200,000 living in Moscow? Where are you coming up with this? Yes, there have been 200,000 dead in 10 years of war, hardly genocide. 400,000 Chechins fled Chechnya in 1993 along with 450,000 Russians, Jews, Georgians and Armenians. Really, do look these figures up. You are making emotional comments which is how the left works, emotions with no anchor in reality.

They also are potential victims of essentially lawless numerous Russian and local pro-Moscow armed units who periodically kidnap, torture, kill or free-for-ransom ordinary Chechens.

You do realize those pro-Moscow armed units are Chechin, right? Just like their government. Mashkedov murdered Kadorov who was not only the elected president but also the Grand Mufti and a former Chechin war hero who in his own words went to Moscow's side because the Wahhabies came in and took everything over.

Russian forces behave there like the hordes of Ghenghis Khan or Hitler on their own territory against their own citizens.

Welp, knew the obligatory leftist Hitler comparison had to come up. If you haven't figured it out, the left just loves this one and that is exactly how you sound. Hitler hugh, so where are the concentration camps and how come 700,000 out of 900,000 Chechins are still alive after 10 years? Ghangus Khan? So all the Chechin cities have been burnt down? The nobles/leaders crushed under the gates with herds of horses? All the males above a wagon wheel's height beheaded? All the women and children sold off to slavery?

I'm not going to bother with the second half of a hit piece. You want my advice? The people on FR are smarter then you give them credit for. Many of us are married to Russians, travelled to Russia, know lots of Russians, are former military, are history buffs, politics buffs or just read a lot.

Defending terrorists isn't going to win you browny points, especially using the Left's tried and true arguments.

jb6--You are right--I do not have a military experience, but there are things that are plain wrong whether you have military experience or not.

There are units in Chechnya who fight honorably. But there are units who simply turned into rampaging gangs. You have pro-Moscow paramilitary units involved in kidnappings of local inhabitants for ransom (Ramzan Kadyrov Presidential Security guard for example). If ransom is not paid these units torture or kill their detainees in their custody. This is a STATE TERRORISM--plain and clear. It is not a disciplined military behavior.

Do you hear about American soldiers in Iraq rampaging in Baghdad, rounding up all military-age men in the neighborhood and then demanding a ransom for them from the relatives if they want to get them back alive and well ? NO IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. American Military is incredibly well-disciplined although they face terrible situation on the daily basis and they come under daily attacks from suicide bombers and other thugs.

I am aware of Abu Graib, but the detainees there were real insurgents detained during the military operations

In Chechnya you have a complete breakdown of Law and Order and you have armed units let loose to do whatever they like with the population under their control. Elders are kidnapped for ransom, Disabled are kidnapped for ransom, children are kidnapped for ransom. Are they all insurgents ?

These are well-documented facts.

There are NO DEFENSE OF TERRORISTS LIKE BASAYEV in any of my posting. I also not exactly was charitable to Maskhadov either. I said that he was "liable" for the actions of Basayev because he refused to confront him. So where is the defense of terrorism here ?

Maybe I was mistaken in some numbers on refugees, but the point is the quarter of population is now dead--this is a fact.

Anyway--before attacking me, research the facts properly.

There are units in Chechnya who fight honorably. But there are units who simply turned into rampaging gangs. You have pro-Moscow paramilitary units involved in kidnappings of local inhabitants for ransom (Ramzan Kadyrov Presidential Security guard for example). If ransom is not paid these units torture or kill their detainees in their custody. This is a STATE TERRORISM--plain and clear. It is not a disciplined military behavior.

The difference is, military experience allows one to understand how such situations arise, because you know what it takes to keep either order or allow chaos in a military organization. They have chaos because the soldiers are untrained and the NCOs are a joke.

There is no State Terrorism, plan and clear. If there was such an organized thing, I highly doubt that the majority of Chechins in Chechnya would still be alive. Hell Kadarov was the first one to even put marshal law, 3 years into the fighting.

The gangs, as I've stated, are Chechin and operate the same way that US backed Vietemes militias operating in Vietnam, ruthlessly to their own. Why? Because 1. family quarrels are always the most violent and 2. they understand what it takes to break the enemy.

When Mashkodov's family was rounded up, he instantly called a truce. If that doesn't spark some lights, what will?

Do you hear about American soldiers in Iraq rampaging in Baghdad, rounding up all military-age men in the neighborhood and then demanding a ransom for them from the relatives if they want to get them back alive and well ?

You need to take the rose colored glasses off and read what was happening in Vietnam, even in West Germany after occupation, the first few years. As I've said, the US spends more money then most any nation to train its soldiers. What do you expect?

I am aware of Abu Graib, but the detainees there were real insurgents detained during the military operations

By the way, please explain to me, how looking at a bunch of Chechins you can tell which are Islamic Jihadies and which just "innocent" farmers? I'm sure that ability will be highly prized in the Pentagon.

I also not exactly was charitable to Maskhadov either. I said that he was "liable" for the actions of Basayev because he refused to confront him. So where is the defense of terrorism here ?

Putin's a thug, Putin's a gremlin, Putin's a terrorist. What few "scolding" words you drop on the Chechins are not noticed. Sorry but that's how you write and that is how you come across. Ever wonder why most people don't post to your threads?

Maybe I was mistaken in some numbers on refugees, but the point is the quarter of population is now dead--this is a fact

Again, it's not a quarter, 2/9th is less and it's been 10 years of war, that's an average of 20,000 per year in some very hard fighting and a lot of the killing is Chechins blowing up Chechins, or who do you think sits in those municiple buildings that the terrorists keep blowing up. Also, please explain why those 200,000 Chechins sitting in Moscow have not been touched or expelled, even after the theater.

I've talked to military people and they told me how different situations arise. Of course you have a bunch of kids who are poorly trained and scared. This is another crime of Putin regime of sending fresh conscripts to this war (which is prohibited by Russian law for example). Of course they constantly face situations where they don't know where ambush lies and what happens. However, if you give the units (military, paramilitary, police, security, etc.) a freedom to engage in kidnappings and killings of local inhabitants, if you allow units to engage in lootings and other criminal activities without punishment--then you have NO Military or Security forces. You have a well-armed and dangerous gangs then. That's my point. The trouble with Chechnya also that the tactics used there are spreading across Russia. In December last Year there was a scuffle between a few young people and Police in the small town of Blagoveshensk (the one in Bashkiria, not far East). To avenge the scuffle, police unit (OMON) literally rampaged
throught the town arresting young people at will (including young girls) severely beating them. The entire town was essentially beaten and many young women were raped. This is the fact--once you start lawlessness somewhere, it tends to spread.

As for the Moscow Chechens--they and many other groups in Moscow face constant harrassment by corrupt police. This is little bit different story. Fortunately the rest of Russia did not turn into Chechnya, but let's not dismiss the fact that impact of Chechen tactics is detrimental to the law and order in the rest of Russia.

Here is another article from The Moscow Times on the death of Maskhadov.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2005/03/15/006.html

It's in many ways different opinion from Yulia Latynina (and mine), but I respect it. Anyway, I agree that I yet have a lot to learn to look more professional in my analysis. Although it does not diminish my disgust at the tactics Putin uses in Chechnya, I admit I need to grow to look as a professional news analysis and blogger-:)) and not as a mere loud mouth even if my disgust is right (and I firmly believe it is right).

What do you think will happen with Chechnya as uncontrolled. Allow me to remind you of the two slave markets that operated all week in Chechnya, under Mashkodov's nose. Allow me to remind you of the Chechins who sit in Gitmo, lie dead in Afghanistan and Pakistan and are heard speaking Russian on the beheading tapes in Iraq. Or the dead Chechin who blew up 17 crew members on the USS Cole.

Though the military is undisciplined, mostly, there are several highly disciplined divisions. One of my best friends fought in Chechnya twice, spetsnaz. We met while serving togather in Bosnia during cross country training.

How do you plan on changing the military over night, or rather do you plan on leaving Chechnya and hoping that they don't come back into Daghistan, Ossessia or Ingushia?

That policy is about as stupid as a free "Palistinian" state, a terror state on Israel's borders.

Allow me to remind you how for Holy Easter 1995, the unIslamic Chechins, crucified their Russian prisoners, first cutting off the thumb and two fingers of the right hand, so they couldn't cross themselves. Or maybe you remember Baseyov's "heroic" hostage taking at a maternity hospital where the pregnant women were used as body shields. And after this, the "non-terrorist" Mashkodov appointed this gentle and tranquil creature of Hell as his Prime Minister.

If Mashkodov would not control Baseyov, then what worth is he to negotiate? He either couldn't, and was incompetant and worthless, or wouldn't and was a typical terrorist playing good cop for Baseyov's bad cop. Really isn't anything in between.

As for Moscow, all groups faced harressment from corrupt cops, which if you've been reading or talking to people, has begun to seriously be curbed.

Look, the Communists had the country for 70 years and wrecked hell. Yeltsin, Clinton, Albright, Chermirdon, Soros and the oligarches had the country for 8 years and wrecked even worse hell. Sure they didn't run concentration camps, but plenty of people died from their corruption and the collapse of societ.

Putin has put in conservative reforms (which is what this board is about) and has put his nation first, instead of the globalist leftist crap that is destroying one western nation after the other.

Are you for or against judicial reform and trial by jury?
Are you for or against property reform and land for sale?
Are you for or against a banning on abortion after 12 weeks?
Are you for or against Christian curriculum in schools, the military, etc?
Are you for or against a flat 13% income tax?
Are you for or against a 1/3rd cut in VAT taxes?
Are you for or against the death of the sales tax?
Are you for or against a 1/2 cut in Payroll taxes and a low 24% corporate tax rate?
Are you for or against a balanced budget and a country not only running in the black but paying off most of its outstanding debts?
Are you for or against cutting soviet era welfare handouts that have ruined the economies of almost all of the EU?

jb6--You are right--I do not have a military experience, but there are things that are plain wrong whether you have military experience or not.

I agree, there are things which are plain wrong, but you will never understand why they happen without military experience.

This is a STATE TERRORISM--plain and clear. It is not a disciplined military behavior.

Nonsense! The state does not condone the actions; rather what you see is a military which is made up of conscripts. It takes 16 years for our army to train one platoon sergeant, and when you have a platoon without a veteran sergeant then you see a major breakdown in military disclipine.

I am aware of Abu Graib, but the detainees there were real insurgents detained during the military operations

It took less than a dozen bad soldiers to cause the problems related to Abu Graib.

There are NO DEFENSE OF TERRORISTS LIKE BASAYEV in any of my posting. I also not exactly was charitable to Maskhadov either. I said that he was "liable" for the actions of Basayev because he refused to confront him. So where is the defense of terrorism here ?

Your lack of military experience is showing. In guerilla wars there are always two fronts, military and political. As an example Gerry Adams with Sinn Fein is the political head of the IRA. Never doubt that these two groups are not connected.

"What do you think will happen with Chechnya as uncontrolled"Beslan again!!!!This is total war Thank you

"There are NO DEFENSE OF TERRORISTS LIKE BASAYEV in any of my posting. I also not exactly was charitable to Maskhadov either. I said that he was "liable" for the actions of Basayev because he refused to confront him. So where is the defense of terrorism here ?"What is this?

Actually Yes--very good comment GarySpFc about Maskhadov role.

Maskhadov was a respectable face to an Islamist Insurgency as Jerry Adams is a respectable face to a Northern Irish Terrorism. Actually Jerry Adams for the first time in the last 6 years was not invited at the White House at St. Patrick Day which is great.

However, my disgust is not as much at Maskhadov death, but at the lawlessness that Kremlin regime has brought in Chechnya. Specifically, pro-Moscow Kadyrov unit that is engaging in all forms of atrocities (kidnappings for ransom of elderly, children, women, random killings and other staff like this) and a number of other things.

Certainly, having no military experience (except a few field trips during my school age to military bases to fire Kalashnikov at wooden target and a few days in military camp for highschoolers), I certainly cannot give any professional advise on military technical matters. However, the point is something must be done about lawlessness in Chechnya. BTW, since you are retired professional military (Special Forces--right ?) I would highly recommend that you post your thoughts on how to deal with this nightmare either here or at sergeywatch. The point is--status quo is simply intolerable. It would be glad to hear what military professionals like you think about effective way to deal with insurgency rather then arm chair strategists, like myself -:)

I don't believe I said that you said that there was a defense of Mashkodov. I'm a bit at a loss.

"jb6""Sergey1973"write this this is why I write what is this I do not know Thank you

The problem isn't Chechnya nor is it Putin, the problem is a large cadre of Generals who put their 5 room apartments ahead of what's good for the country. A professional army, by it's merits is a smaller army. A smaller army needs fewer generals and colonels. You should have seen the US Army in the early 90s when the force was being trimmed. All these worthless generals and colonels were finding all kinds of bureaucratic jobs for themselves (which didn't help the army any) so that they wouldn't be fired. The good ole boy network.

If you notice, any incident in Chechnya and Putin launches into firing a half dozen generals. The key is to get rid of them and bring in the younger ones, oh and start paying enough money to the military so that good officers don't leave as captains but stay to become generals.

This isn't going to change over night nor in even 5 years, more like the 10 year time frame. Meanwhile Chechnya will just have to grind on, just like Israel's Palistinian lands.

I wouldn't accuse you of something like that. You're a voice of reason here.

You are right, it is total war. In Islam, we are dealing with an enemy more insane then the Nazis. The Nazis thought themselves supperior but expected you to defend yourself, they just "knew" they would win. The Islamics think they are on a mission from Allah and you have no right to defend yourselves and when you do you must be doubly punished for rising up above your dhimmi place.

"The problem isn't Chechnya nor is it Putin, the problem is a large cadre of Generals who put their 5 room apartments ahead of what's good for the country."Total truth!!!