(LDS)L.D.S. perspective on Islam

I recently listened to a CD by a Professor of Near East Studies at BYU. The posting below is a rather meadering response to what I think were some problems, with his presentation. I am LDS, so this is not a diatribe against his LDS faith, but rather points of argument that I have with this Professor's interpretation of Islam in the context of the LDS faith.

The CD is stated to be an “L.D.S. perspective on Islam,” I finished listening to it last week and I can't say that I was completely satisfied with the product.

The CD is by Dr. Daniel Peterson. He does cover some interesting aspects of both the LDS faith and that of Islam that I had not considered before. Other similarities are obvious to the casual observer of the faiths: both emphasize family, charity and good works.

An example of these parallel beliefs can be seen in the cooperation between the faiths on the issue of tsunami aid (see first article after my comments below).

I'm a student of Islamic history, and one of the themes I've explored in Islam is the trend to allow for two opposing traditions to reside in the same theological school. Muslim theologians actually considered this aspect (its dualism) of the Ashar'ite school (in some ways the Ashar'ite school was as influential as the "Augustinian" school of thought was to medieval Catholism) to be a virtue. They saw the two opposing positions, relevant to man's agency, as "two sides" of the "same coin." Ultimately, they seemed to say, it didn't matter that a theological paradox had been created. Both positions were viewed to be legitimate aspects of Allah's creation.

If one side of Islam's response to the Tsunami victims can be seen in its cooperation with LDS relief efforts -(An example of a "second side" can be viewed in the second article after my comments below).

It contains an account of Sheik Fawzan al-Fawzan's (a professor at Al-Iman University in Saudi Arabia) allegation that the tsunami hit the area it did at Christmas because of the Christians sinning with Muslims in the region. In my mind, another paradox, on one side imminent Muslims working with Christians. Another side, displaying notable Muslims blaming Christians. It is this "two sided" aspect of Islam that continues to worry me. As opposed to medieval Muslim theologians, paradox bothers me.

The positive side of Islam, is the only one that Peterson spends much time with in his CD's. In some ways this is understandable. In reality, the only aspect of the Islamic religion that the LDS faith, or any Christian faith can have any hope of working with, on the humanitarian level is this "positive" side. Why deal with something where there can be no possibility of something useful in the way of postive Christian/Muslim relations developing from it?

It some ways, I think this was the policy of the U.S. government before 9/11. Men like Osama bin Laden were known to harbor hostile thoughts and intentions about the U.S., but they were seen as men, of "words" only, without the ability to act. 9/11 changed that.

In my view, Dr. Peterson's lecture (it was given post 9/11) should have acknowledged the fact of 9/11 in a more straightforward way. People know that bin Laden was a Muslim, that his view of Islam influenced his actions. That in fact his view of Islam, "justified" his actions to himself and a large segment of the Muslim world. This fact in and of itself has raised the American consciousness about Islam. I am sure that a big reason a significant number of people attended the seminar or bought the CD was to receive some enlightenment about this issue. It was not addressed. It is a negative aspect of the religion, and so Peterson, set in his pre 9/11 world view largely ignores it.

A lesson that many in the U.S. government learned from 9/11, is that though the positive should not be ignored, neither should the negative. It has the power to affect our lives in ways that should be accounted for. I think this is a reasonable lesson to learn from 9/11.

There are venues where being positive should be the only goal. Perhaps that is what Peterson viewed his role to be in his lecture series on Islam to be. But if that is the case, he perhaps should have changed the tile of the lecture to reflect this. Something like"Another American Professor of the Middle East Proclaims Islam a Religion of Peace" (making the percentage about 90 % of all American University faculty polled).

Even if he took this more straight forward approach, I think there are some points in his lecture where Peterson's enthusiasm for "tolerance" and "universalism," may have carried him away to error. I believe that sometimes it is best not to say anything, even if what one says contains an element of truth, if it in fact obscures a larger reality.

One of the first topics that Peterson brings up, is the fact that Christians in the Middle East refer to God as Allah and that the name used for God in the Arabic Bible is Allah. That is fine, if the LDS church sends missionaries to the Middle East in the future, I have no doubt that they will use the world "Allah" for God as well (It is used this way in the Arabic translation of the Book of Mormon).

Peterson then does a brief etymology of the word "Allah" and notes its relation to the word for God or gods in the Old Testament. He then concludes with his belief that the Allah/God spoken of in the Koran is identical to the God spoken of in the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

This begins the basis of his main theme, that at the core the LDS people (and by inference larger Christianity) and Muslims really have mostly the same beliefs. I hope I am not overstating Peterson here, but that is the theme as I understood it. If it is so, I think that Peterson has very much over stepped the limits of the case he presents.

For one, I am very uncomfortable identifying my God, the one that I have come to know through the study of the LDS scriptures (the Bible and the Book of Mormon) with the god I have come to know in the Koran. Although almost every surah (chapter) of the Koran begins with the phrase "in the name of most merciful, compassionate" Allah; even the terms "merciful" and "compassionate" have a different usage in the Koran. The god of the Koran is a capricious individual. His ways are impenetrable to man. Man can not pray to God to learn his will. He can only pray to praise God. God ceased communicating with man with his revelation to Muhammad over a millennium ago. One of the main thesis's of this revelation (the Koran) is that the god of the Koran does not have any associates, i.e. he does not have a son and there is no need for an Atonement. These beliefs are central to the LDS/Christian notion of who God is. To claim that Allah is the same...like...Peterson seems to do...is I think more than a bit strange.

To myself, the Muslim belief in God has strong parallels to that of the Zoramite people in the Book of Mormon. Chapter 31 of Alma tells of their practices in worshiping God and that like Muslims they specifically denied the role of Christ (his deity), verse 16:

"...O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethen, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God."

"11. See that ye are not lifted up unto pride; yea, see that ye do not boast in your own wisdom, nor of your much strength."

"12. Use boldness, but not overbearance; and also see that ye bridle all your passions, that ye maybe filled with love; see that ye refrain from idleness."

"13. Do not pray as the Zoramites do, for ye have seen that they pray to be heard of men, and to be praised for their wisdom."

"14. Do not say: O God, I thank thee that we are better than our brethren; but rather say: O Lord, forgive my unworthiness, and remember my brethren in mercy-yea, acknowledge your unworthiness before God at all times."

"15. And may the Lord bless your soul, and receive you at the last day into his kingdom, to sit down in peace. Now go, my son, and teach the word.”

Again, I'm not sure if Peterson's etymology of the word "Allah" leads to sober conclusions. Do we praise the Zoramties in LDS Sunday school lessons for their "closeness" to the Nephite worship? Or do we note the differences and the consequences their different beliefs? I do believe that the complete absence of a doctrine of the Atonement in Muslim thought is a huge defect in their belief system and has had huge consequence of how the "individual" and "individual rights" are viewed in Islam. In addition to the fundamental difference concerning Jesus Christ's inclusion in the Godhead, I think the above verses offer additional parallels between the Zoramites and modern day Muslims.

Islam is noted to be an "overt" religion and Christianity largely an "invert," by this it is meant that Christians emphasis their personal relation with God, while Muslims emphasize the individual relationship with the larger Muslim community. To a very real extent the only prayer that counts in Islam, is the prayer done in public and the most important of these prayers is the Friday communal prayer. These prayers are often noted for their political polemic and often involve colorful denouncements of the religion's or the political ruler of the days enemies (that "we are better than our brethren").

"And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world."

To myself, this scripture says, that anyway for salvation that is suggested, that excludes Christ, is empty...so why try and "prop up" the Muslim Allah? I would suggest that not only was it unethical for Dr. Peterson to attempt to support what I am going to assume was a personal agenda for promoting a "tolerant social exchange" with bad scholarship, but I think in the end that it was possibly harmful to the LDS faith.

The Church continues to have its enemies. Cunning enemies, who will take advantage of another's good will. Dr. Peterson's remarks, are largely a straight forward effort to establish Muslim/LDS good will. Good will is a good thing, but like "tolerance," it should not be an end all goal. It is possible that Dr. Peterson's remarks may have opened a door for a criticism of LDS theology. A door that I believe need not have been open.

An internet search engine query on Dr. Peterson brought up the following criticism. It is largely your typical ugly, inaccurate and ill informed anti-Mormon tripe. But on the subject of what they had say about Peterson and his view of the Godhead, I found myself sadly agreeing with some of their comments (for instance, I would be inclined to agree that Western scholarship does suggest that there are strong pagan elements in the concept of God presented in the Koran):

"We decided to begin this response by mentioning Dr. Peterson's comments about Islam because these illustrate his concern with inter-faith religious understanding/dialogue, as well as his approach to comparative religion and our book in general. Thus, in his review, he criticizes our “The Facts on Islam” in the following words.”

“We "ignorantly describe Allah, the object of worship in Islam, as an evil, pagan deity. They are evidently unaware that the word Allah is closely related to the Hebrew word Elohim, and that it is simply the Arabic equivalent of the English word God. (It is so used throughout the Arabic Bible.)” Thus Dr. Ankerberg and Dr. Dr. [sic] Weldon, in denouncing the Muslims as heathenish devil-worshipers, also blithely condemn millions of their Arabic Christian brothers and sisters."

"Note Dr. Peterson's tone. Note that he disagrees with our conclusion that the Muslim God was derived from paganism, and that, from a biblical perspective, Allah should be considered an evil deity. But many reputable scholars agree with us and we have conducted more than sufficient research into Islam to justify our conclusions, only a small portion of which were placed in our booklet. For Dr. Peterson to argue that the Muslim God Allah is not evil or pagan is understandable from his perspective as a Mormon, but false nonetheless. (One dictionary definition of pagan as "not a Muslim, Christian or Jew" does not mean that Muslims never derived their God from paganism) ."

"Peterson also entirely misses the point when he discusses the words Allah and God, as if to imply that when a Muslim refers to Allah and a Christian refers to God they are indicating the same deity. Certainly, Dr. Peterson does not think there are no serious differences between the biblical God and the God of Islam? What then is the point to his argument? In The Facts on Islam, we showed just how different the God of Islam and the God of the Bible are. Finally, to claim we "denounce" Muslims as "heathenish devil worshipers" are his words, not ours. As we will see, Dr. Peterson not infrequently misrepresents what we say."

"What we did was to offer legitimate evidence from Islamic scholars and those who knew Muhammad to show there was good reason to believe that Muhammad's revelations from the alleged angel Gabriel comprising the Koran were received from a jinn (spirit)--in Christian terms, a fallen angel or demon-- and not from the one true God, as Muslims claim. But never did we "denounce Muslims as heathenish devil worshipers," since that would be untrue. So why did Dr. Peterson misrepresent what we said? "

"Finally, in claiming that we have condemned millions of Arab Christians because we declared Allah is a false God of the Muslims, is without merit, and indeed, unconscionable. Again, does he really believe there is no difference at all between Allah and Jehovah? Perhaps in his praise for Islam as "one of the world's greatest religious traditions," he has forgotten how thoroughly the Koran denies the deity of Jesus Christ, how frequently Islam has persecuted Christians historically and today, or how the Koran logically supports Muslim terrorism. In the latter part of the first Millennium, Islam almost destroyed Christianity by military conquest and historically Islam has been an undeniable enemy of Christianity either physically or spiritually, as the Koran dictates.”

“Even today, Islam holds high honors in the persecution of Christians. For example, The January, 1996 World Watch Persecution Index, published by Open Doors revealed that, apart from North Korea and China, Islamic countries held every single spot on the top ten list of countries where persecution of Christians was most severe. Christian homes and churches are burned, Christian women raped and Christian men, women and children have been murdered. The persecution continues to this day in Muslim nations around the world.”

“Does Dr. Peterson really think a world dominated by strict Islamic law would not persecute or even exterminate Christians who did not renounce their faith and adopt Islam? Does he possibly believe a pagan, polytheistic faith like Mormonism would survive Islamic rule?"

"Indeed, given the influence of Islam in the modern world-- the terrorism of 'radical' Muslims, it's spiritual or physical "holy wars" in the name of Allah, it's denial of God, Christ, the gospel etc., thus leading hundreds of millions of Muslims to eternal judgment -- all in the name of Allah, -- if that isn't evil from a biblical perspective, what is? But our differences here point out much more. Because of their contrary theology and worldview, Mormons and Christians view almost everything theological differently. As a Mormon and presumably a universalist, Dr. Peterson is not concerned with the eternal damnation of Muslims. He thus has no concern with the biblical gospel, which freely offers salvation by grace to sinners facing the eternal wrath of a holy God. Since Dr. Peterson worships an entirely different God than the biblical God, he has no concern with that God's interests at all."

I probably didn't need to include all that, but I do think it illustrates the risk one takes when one becomes too much of a "universalist" - this title (universalist) is I think a legitimate label that the above authors have applied to Peterson (I think he went a long way to earn it in the lecture).

That said, I would not follow them, and go so far as to suggest that the origins of Islam are evil. I would say that the historical record does not say much about the early history of Islam. There were likely some pagan influences. But I also know that the scriptures (The Book of Mormon) tell us that the "Lord has sent prophets to declare these things (the gospel) to every nation (Mosiah 3: 13)" and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the core Muslim beliefs (good ones) originated from these prophets (Lehi and his family spent a good deal of time in Arabia), but if this was the case, there was a later huge apostasy from the truth...huge.

Another point that Peterson makes on the first CD is that the early Muslims raided as part of their "culture." They saw it as their "right" to raid and pillage their non-Muslim neighbors. But Peterson says that we shouldn't be too hard on these early Muslims because "good" Christians in these times also raided their neighbors.

Here is the policy of "equivalency" that is part and parcel of being a universalist. An argument that we saw raised so often during the Clinton administration (we should not be hard on Clinton for lying -others before have done it (in fact "everybody" does it, etc.). I disliked its use then. I dislike its use here. The fact is that "good" Christians did not raid and pillage. Yes, Christians did raid and pillage, but they were not "good." They were going against the tenets of the religion.

In contrast, Muhammad himself led raids against his enemies, even going so far as to break treaties he had signed with them when he had gained a military upper hand. Herein lies the difference, Christians who raided went against the tenets of their religion, Muslims were following the example of their prophet.

Peterson also picks up the tired theme that Christians and Jews lived in "golden harmony" under Muslim rule in the middle ages: that Islam is a tolerant religion. This notion is a warm one, but hardly supported by the historical record, at least in the way that an American understands the use of the word "tolerant."

In the second CD Peterson suggests that the current Muslim/Israeli hostilities are largely a European import (Nazisism). This is false. The horrible hatred that Muslims have for Jews goes back to the very core of the Muslim religion.

The Koran on this issue offers another example of "two sides" on one issue. Some sections of the Koran do declare that Jews are "people of the book" and should be allowed to live a very, very second class and degraded life in a Muslim community (they should be “tolerated“). These are considered early or "Meccan" chapters of the Koran. Later chapters (Medinan) declare that Jews can not be trusted, that they should be killed and that they are descended from apes. It is the later chapters of the Koran as well as the "hadith" (basically a historical commentary on the Koran), which narrate accounts of Mohammed breaking treaties with Jewish tribes which lead to their slaughter. Most Islamic scholars say that the later chapters have more "weight" than the earlier ones for they are assume be to the final word of Allah on the subject. It is these chapters that form the core hatred - not Nazisism. For more detail on this subject see an excellent book by Bat Ye'or, "Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam."

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?EAN=978083863262 8&x=46001901

In a lecture to an LDS audience, I would have liked to have seen some parallels drawn between the collapse of Islamic civilization (which was never as great as Peterson suggests (in my view) and accounts of civilizations with in our scriptural canon that declined after rejecting the gospel. Talmage gave us the “The Great Apostasy.“ I would argue that at least as much apostasy existed in the Medieval Muslim religion (and the modern) as in the Medieval Christian religion.

But again this would have required a systematic criticism of Islam and thus detracted from Dr. Peterson’s “Universalist” agenda. It would have put him well outside the framework of what has traditionally been “well mannered” Middle East scholarship in the U.S. and Europe; where scholarly criticism of Islam has been largely seen as impolite (Christianity of course has been free game). This tradition has been slowly changing. The author noted in the paragraph below, Patricia Crone, had been at the forefront of much bold scholarship. By bold, I not only mean in the context of taking professional risks and going against the grain of traditional American and European scholarship, but also physical risk. Besides the “polite” issue, those who criticize Islam are regularly threatened (Crone is) and this danger has again received attention this past week with the murder of the Copt family in New Jersey (see third article - after my comments - below).

I recently started a book called “ God’s Rule Government and Islam: Six Centuries of Medieval Islamic Political Thought.” It is by Patricia Crone. In the first few pages of the book Crone notes some interesting aspects of Medieval Islam, aspects that I believe illustrate just a few of the ideas that were percolating in early Islam in regard to doctrine of the creation of man that would suggest apostasy to the LDS reader:

“When medieval Muslims pondered the question why government exists, they formulated their answer in functional terms: rulers performed such and such roles for which there was a need thanks to the nature of human beings. They rarely addressed the historical question how rulers had developed or when they had first appeared, but it is clear from their creation myth that they did not share the medieval Western view of government as a secondary development of human history rooted in the Fall. They tacitly assumed government had existed even before the creation of mankind.”

“The relevant part of their creation myth may be summarized as follows. When God had created heaven, earth, the angels, and the jinn, He created Iblis (the future devil), who was the first to receive power (mulk). God made him ruler and governor of lower heaven and earth, as well as keeper of Paradise, or, according to another version, He made him judge among the jinn, who were the first inhabitants of earth and who had kings, prophets, religious faith, long life, and blessings in abundance. The jinn grew wicked and caused corruption on earth, whereupon Iblis sent an army against them and defeated them, which made him haughty; others say that Iblis was a captive taken by an army of angels sent against them by God and that he became haughty because he grew up among the angels as a result of his capture; or, according to another version, Iblis was so successful a judge among the jinn that he grew haughty and started fighting them. In any case, God knew that Iblis was growing haughty and created Adam to bring out his true colours. Iblis duly refused to bow down to Adam, whereupon he was cast into the lowest Hell. God then created Eve, but she was subverted by Iblis in the form of a snake and both she and Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, whereupon they were expelled from Paradise. Eve was punished with menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, and stupidity; Adam accidentally brushed his head against heaven when he fell to earth (they do not simply walk out of Paradise in the Muslim version), and so be became bald, both suffered the indignity of having to defecate: Adam wept when he smelt the stench. But above all, they lost their freedom from work: they and their descendants now had to do all the “irksome ploughing, planting, irrigating, reaping, threshing, milling, kneading, spinning, weaving and washing” which they had been spared in Paradise. This was the crucial way in which the Fall affected the human condition. There was no forfeiture of immortality. Humans did not become more sinful than they had been from the start either, and human history did not turn into a story of Paradise lost and regained. In fact, many scholars denied that the Paradise from which Adam and Eve were expelled was identical with that in which God’s righteous servants would eventually find themselves (pp. 4-5).”

I hope I haven’t been too critical of things. I do appreciate Dr. Peterson efforts to improve LDS/Muslim relations. There is a very real and legitimate side of Islam that I believe does accord closely with LDS/Christian beliefs and standards. But there is also another side that does not. Obviously this was the side that I’ve talked mostly about in this post. Maybe I do have a pessimistic nature that inclines me to discuss this side, but I also think it is "healthy" to not ignore it either.

Servisair ground handler Scott Lambros loads pallets with the tons of emergency supplies that will be flown today to Sumatra, Indonesia.

In a crammed warehouse at the Salt Lake City International Airport, these items were being packaged and prepared Friday for shipment to Indonesia where thousands have been left homeless after Sunday's tsunamis.

It's the first major shipment of relief supplies out of Salt Lake City — and part of a partnership between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Islamic Relief Worldwide, an international relief organization. A flight was expected to leave early this morning to take the goods to the Medan Airport in Sumatra, Indonesia, where over 80,000 have been killed. "When it comes to a major disaster, compassion holds no bound," said Bishop Richard C. Edgley, first counselor in the LDS Church's Presiding Bishopric.

"These goods are going to be for people of all faiths, most of them will be Islamic, and we will just use our members and leaders and other charitable organizations to distribute however we can best get (these goods) to the people," Bishop Edgley said.

On a windy airport runway, he stood side-by-side with Ahmad El-Bendary, president of Islamic Relief Worldwide, pointing to the empty cargo plane that was about to be loaded with nearly 143,000 pounds of relief supplies.

It's not their first collaboration to aid those in need, both men said. And it won't be the last.

Other shipments are being prepared for shipment to southern Asia. And both organizations have members in countries like Indonesia and Sri Lanka working to assess needs and collaborate relief efforts with government officials and other relief agencies. It's an overwhelming job, says Bishop Edgley, and perhaps one of the greatest humanitarian efforts the church has undertaken.

Peter Appleton is feeling the pressure. On Wednesday, he received a call requesting a chartered MD-11 cargo plane to carry the goods.

"It's stressful," said Appleton, who was overseeing crews loading supplies at the Salt Lake City International Airport. "You have such a short period of time to work."

Seven semitrucks with relief supplies were sent to a storage facility, where crews quickly packaged the goods for shipment. It was cold and dirty — and many had worked since 7 a.m.

Dr. Mohamad Abul-Magd, U.S. manager for Islamic Relief Worldwide, called the efforts "overwhelming." "With disasters it's really painful," he said. "But when you see the response of people it does bring the best out of humans."

In the coming weeks, Islamic Relief will focus its efforts on rehabilitation work in the 11 countries hit by tsunamis, according to Abul-Magd.

"We really need to start setting up rehabilitation — helping people to start help themselves," he said. The LDS Church has prepared a four-pronged response, starting with a needs assessment and immediate shipments of relief supplies. Garry Flake, director of emergency response for the church, flew to southern Asia on Monday with checkbook in hand to begin coordinating those efforts.

Bishop Edgley will fly out on Monday to meet with LDS Church officials in southern Asia and prepare a long-term plan for relief.

Homosexuality, fornication cause of tsunami? Saudi professor says sinful acts caused disaster WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Wednesday, January 5, 2005

Homosexuality, fornication cause of tsunami? Saudi professor says sinful acts at Christmastime caused disaster

A Muslim Saudi professor says the earthquake and tsunami in south Asia were punishment from Allah for homosexuality and fornication committed by residents and visitors of affected countries at Christmastime.

A television interview of Sheik Fawzan Al-Fawzan, a professor at the Al-Imam University, was translated and posted on the Internet by the Middle East Media Research Institute TV Monitor Project, or MEMRI TV. The interview can be viewed on MEMRI's website.

"These great tragedies and collective punishments that are wiping out villages, towns, cities and even entire countries, are Allah's punishments of the people of these countries, even if they are Muslims," stated Al-Fawzan. "Some of our forefathers said that if there is usury and fornication in a certain village, Allah permits its destruction."

"We know that at these resorts, which unfortunately exist in Islamic and other countries in south Asia, and especially at Christmas, fornication and sexual perversion of all kinds are rampant," he said. "The fact that it happened at this particular time is a sign from Allah. It happened at Christmas, when fornicators and corrupt people from all over the world come to commit fornication and sexual perversion. That's when this tragedy took place, striking them all and destroyed everything. It turned the land into wasteland, where only the cries of the ravens are heard. I say this is a great sign and punishment on which Muslims should reflect."

Al-Fawzan urged Muslims to atone for their sin. "All that's left for us to do is to ask for forgiveness We must atone for our sins and for the acts of the stupid people among us and improve our condition. We must fight fornication, homosexuality, usury, fight the corruption on the face of the earth, and the disregard of the lives of protected people."

A Bloody Crime in New Jersey Divides Egyptians Once Again (Copts: "Wake up America!")

JERSEY CITY, Jan. 20 - Muslim and Christian students of Egyptian descent suddenly no longer sit together during lunch at Dickinson High School on Palisade Avenue. At Halal butcher shops and Christian-owned grocery stores, sales clerks speak in equally hushed tones about the unsolved murder last week of a Christian Egyptian family, wary of who may be listening.

And friendships that were once free of religious division are now strained, in ways subtle and blunt, as speculation that four members of the family were killed because of their religion has run rampant, even though there has been no official findings by the authorities.

For years, Mohsen Elesawi, a Muslim Egyptian, shared shisha pipes and games of chess with Christian Egyptians at the Christian-owned El Saraya cafe on Vroom Street. Now, when he walks into the room, he often hears a quiet pause, "like a subject change," he said.

"Now there is no trust between Muslims and Christians and there is a lot of anger," said Mr. Elesawi, 52, a limousine driver who immigrated to Jersey City 21 years ago. "It's changed dramatically."

In the words of Fakher Fahmy, 53, a Christian Egyptian who owns a construction company in Jersey City, Muslims and Christians "spoke as friends" before the murders. "Now everybody is scared of everybody," he said.

For decades, Jersey City has been an experiment in peace between Muslims and Christians from Egypt. At odds in their homeland, the two groups had bonded as immigrants, mingling at the same cafes, schools and taxi stands, glued by one language and national identity. They shared eagerly in forging a new, American life.

But in the week since four family members, including an 8-year-old girl, were found in their home here with their throats slit, a centuries-old rift has come to the surface.

To the outsider, the extent of vitriol and near-paranoia provoked by the slayings seems hard to fathom: the police have yet to make an arrest and believe that robbery was a motive. Still, in the days after the four victims were found bound, gagged and stabbed to death, the scant known facts of the case have been supplanted by a swirl of rumor and innuendo that the victims were the targets of Muslims, leading to scenes of chaos at the funeral, with mourners shoving each other and threatening to beat a sheik who attended.

The murder case, while tragic on its own, has opened a wound and produced an outpouring of emotion that even Egyptian Christians and Muslims struggle to explain. The answer is layered: there are old-world grievances, a largely unspoken anger toward Egyptian Muslims after 9/11, and a newfound immigrant power that has left the Egyptian Christians - a repressed minority in Egypt - unafraid to assert their voice here.

The murder victims - Hossam Armanious, 47, Amal Garas, 37, and their daughters, Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8 - were Copts, or members of the Coptic Orthodox church. In Egypt, Muslims are the majority and Copts, who are roughly 10 percent of the population, live with varying degrees of social, political and religious discrimination, according to the United States State Department and human rights groups.

But in Jersey City, which has the largest Coptic Egyptian community in the United States, Copts are estimated to outnumber Muslims, and the balance of power between them is more equal.

Many Copts, along with Muslims, have enjoyed financial success. Fred Ayad, a Copt who left Cairo for Jersey City 35 years ago, rose to become deputy mayor. And Copts from all walks of life, from surgeons to cab drivers, will attest that in America, they have found a new social comfort. They no longer live on the margins of society: they are among the religious majority.

But if anything altered that newfound comfort, and helped stoke the recent friction over the murder case, it was Sept. 11.

Muslims in the United States were not alone in suffering a social backlash. Arabs of other religions have also been subjected to hate crimes, searches at airports, loss of jobs and other problems experienced by Muslims after the attacks. But that shared distress has wrought some hard and painful realities within the Arab community, with non-Muslims wishing to distance themselves from Muslims.

"Here in the United States, they think all Egyptians are alike," said a 51-year-old Copt from Jersey City who identified himself only as A. Iskander. "We have nothing to do with 9/11. It makes me angry."

That anger strikes many Muslim Americans as deeply unfair - they often make a point of saying that they, too, had nothing to do with 9/11. But it may explain the rather startling scene that unfolded on the steps of the slain family's church on Bergen Avenue last Sunday. Hundreds of Copts stood watching as members of the American Coptic Association gathered before television cameras and declared the family's murder a religious "execution," drawing comparisons to slayings by terrorists in Iraq and Egypt. "Wake up America!" yelled Dr. Monir Dawoud, the president of the group. If newcomers to the Arab community found the image of Arabs denouncing other Arabs as terrorists surprising, it was not unusual for Dr. Dawoud, whom some have criticized as using the murder case to advance Coptic rights in Egypt.

Almost immediately, rumors flew: Mr. Armanious had engaged in fiery debates about Christianity and Islam in Internet chat rooms, and may have been threatened with murder, his friends said. The police would not confirm or deny that, but discounted newspaper reports that a tattoo of a cross on Sylvia Armanious's wrist had been stabbed. Muslim leaders responded by condemning the killings, but also decrying the recriminations against their religion, at a news conference on Wednesday. They invited a representative of the Coptic church to speak, but no one came.

"It's not the time for us to speak about anything now," said the Rev. David Bebawi, a priest at the slain family's church, St. George and St. Shenouda Coptic Orthodox Church. The press conference was "appropriate for them," he said. "It's not appropriate for me. We are grieved."

It is impossible to know what permanence, if any, the friction in Jersey City will have. There are still moments of harmony - Copts and Muslims continue to share tables at El Saraya, for instance, and Copts still shop at King M & M Halal Meat on West Side Avenue. But many Muslims and Copts agree that, for the time being, a shift has occurred. It is both subtle and nakedly obvious, if perhaps short-lived.

"I'm not going to be friends with Muslims anymore - their parents killed my best friend," said a 17-year-old boy who attends Dickinson High School, his eyes welling with tears. Sylvia Armanious was a star student at Dickinson, where fights between Muslims and Copts have been brewing since news of the murders hit, students and school officials said. One girl's headscarf was pulled off, according to several students, though school officials said they did not know about the incident.

"Why are they blaming the Muslims?" asked a 15-year-old student from Pakistan, cloaked in a black hijab, as she briskly walked home from school Wednesday afternoon. "I feel scared."

School officials said that counselors at the school have been enlisted to address the tension and grief. Of the roughly 3,000 students who attend Dickinson, about 150 are Egyptian.

"The superintendent is trying to do everything possible to make sure that nothing happens in the school," said Dr. Sharon Bartley-Monos, executive assistant to Jersey City's public schools superintendent, Charles T. Epps, Jr.

The city's first Egyptians, both Copts and Muslims, began noticeably arriving here in the 1960's. Today, both groups number in the tens of thousands. (The census does not track religious affiliation, but both Coptic organizations and the Jersey City chapter of the Council on Arab-Islamic Relations estimate the number of Copts to be above 30,000 and Muslims to total about 25,000, out of the city's population of 239,000.)The city's oldest mosque and its oldest Coptic church - the pillars of the Egyptian community - stand five blocks apart. Both were built in the 1970's, and are filled with hundreds of congregants every week. But when they are not worshipping apart, Muslims and Copts are working, shopping, walking and studying in many of the same places. And until this week, they seemed yet another example of how immigration to a new world can breed peaceful plurality.

For many children of Egyptian immigrants, the anguish surrounding the murders has brought to life a division they only heard about at the dinner table. Some have made their parents' grievance their own. Others have worked hard, despite the intensity of emotions over the last week, not to.

"We never talk about religion," said Moustafa Ahmed, 18, a Muslim of Egyptian descent, as he sat with his three best friends - a Muslim and two Copts - after school one day. The four young men, all of whom are students at Dickinson, began their lives together in Jersey City as neighbors in the same building, when their families first moved here, and have remained friends ever since.

"We don't put religion in our friendship at all," said Mario Gerges, 17, who is a Copt. Nonetheless, young Copts like Mr. Gerges grew up hearing the stories of repression: how Copts in Egypt do not, for the most part, hold high-ranking positions in the government, the army or in universities; how the government appoints and pays the salaries of imams in mosques, but does not help finance or repair Christian churches.

"In my country, I can't have one tenth of this," said Mr. Ayad, the Copt who served as deputy mayor in Jersey City for nine years, until 2001. Mr. Ayad, who is also a Coptic deacon and a real estate investor, said he dreamed of being a politician in Egypt but never had the chance given his religious affiliation. And then there are the clashes between the groups, which date back more than 1,300 years, to when Islam took over as Egypt's leading religion. The most recent large-scale strife, in the upper Egyptian town of El Kusheh in 2000, left 20 Christians and one Muslim dead. In June, the country's highest court upheld the acquittal of 94 suspects who were charged in the incident, leaving public prosecutors and human rights activists with no further legal redress, according to the State Department's International Religious Freedom Report. The rage felt by many Jersey City Copts in the murder of the Armanious family was tethered, in part, to resentment over the Kusheh massacre, many Copts who were interviewed said.

"Why did so many people go into the streets, expressing their anger and belief that this is terrorism?" asked Dr. Dawoud. "Because the same things happened in Egypt."

Egyptian Muslims often provide a different portrait of life in their homeland, characterizing the complaints of Copts as far-fetched or exaggerated. "If you go there, you wouldn't see what you hear here," said Hamed Elshanawany, the vice president of the Egyptian American Group, a nondenominational organization based in Jersey City.

Despite the lack of confirmation by the police, numerous Copts interviewed, from entrepreneurs to blue-collar workers, said they were sure the slaying was an act of religious hatred, given the way in which the victims were killed. But that notion does not sit well with Muslims, who have grown weary of seeing their faith tainted by extremists.

"I don't know what being slaughtered the Muslim way means," said Mr. Elesawi, the Muslim limousine driver. "The person who does such an act does not belong to any religion."

This is a long "free flow" post....dealing with religious issues... I'm sure there will be a lot who think some of what I have to say "out there" (as well as I'm sure notice a boat load of grammatical errors) - but like the title suggests (LDS) - this is mainly for comments from the LDS Freeper community (who I also hope will try and excuse my poor grammar). Thanks

(LDS)L.D.S. perspective on Islam

The Middle East is really tough duty to pull for your missionary work.

As an evangelical Christian who has some huge issues with Mormonism, I think this guy really misses the mark badly. One would not imagine Islamic nations coming to the aid, unless in just a very token way, to any no Islamic nation or people. I could see Mormons doing it.

I think it would also be fair to say that when Mormons and Christians (Mormons do believe all other Churches are an abomination, so it is fair to make a distinction) have a common social goal, it does not in any way imply they are theological in agreement on even the most basic tenets of faith.

As I said, this guy is way off base; and even I would not hint or suggest that Mormons have anything in common with Moslems.

As an evangelical Christian who has some huge issues with Mormonism.....
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Ditto. Not really the right group of people to be talking to about Islam, IMHO. Too many parallels.

The poster should have said "only", not "mainly comments from LDS Freepers". That leaves the door open for "unbelievers".

Biggest parrallel of Morman and Islam: a prophet with the last word from "God" which is put forth to re-indoctrinate the people. See Galatians 1:6-9

To the poster: No thanks, yours doesn't work anyway, IMO. See my tagline for what does work.

jeez... I said my grammar was not great...but your parsing of the word "only" sort of reminds me of the great slickmister's use of the word "is"...do subscribe to the slickmister school of grammar?

I have read some of Daniel Peterson's articles and been kind of confused. Thanks for clearing up some of where he was coming from.

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