Russians Outlaw Criticism of Govt on Internet
And a decent percentage of America's youth thinks that's just okely-dokely.
Posted on 01/28/2005 6:45:05 AM PST by blackminorcapullets
.....what the 'plans' for India,... All of South-East Asia...,South Asia,...Turkey and Israel?
????
,,|,, (o.O) ,,|,,
Before the decade is out, it will be obvious there is more freedom in Iraq than in Russia.
Just realized that I did say that you could put up almost any oligarch and that I could prove they were high-level Communists. Don't know why I said that. Guess I got a little trigger-happy from all the "Russians" who send me hate mail. If you go back far enough, you will realize that I have stated over and over that the oligarchs are being used as patsies by the Communists. It was careless of me to slip up in this regard and I apologize.
The "plan" is to kendlessly keep winning and assuming that this world will be here forever and that life is a right for all to keep.
Wow, very interesting. Based on what Golitsyn wrote, it would appear that the very discrediting attacks he foretold are happening right here on FR. Fascinating.
". It is an honor to learn more about the tactical genius that stands against us. And we "cold warriors" haven't had so much laughter since our younger days of viewing training films of Russian infantry training."
Well this "Cold Warrior" has to get a kick out of the fearmongering going on. I see first hand what this "threat" is - hyped up in the papers, on the net. It's still the paper tiger it was when they were the Soviet Union. However, one BIG difference, their military is even less capable than it was back then (back when I faced it across the Wall in Berlin). How many of our soldiers are begging for money, booze, cigarettes on the streets? How many of our soldiers die of malnutrition, beatings, pneumonia, etc.? How many of our soldiers abscond with their weapons after killing abusive officers?
Their spring and fall draft boards rarely meet their quotas and the boys they do select are sick, drug addicted, HIV positive, or mentally unstable or slow (that being because the smarter and richer kids figure out a way to bribe the draft board. It's not uncommon for a Russian draft board officer to drive to the board in his new BMW - a strange feat for a guy who earns an average of 150 dollars a month [bribes average 5000USD and are climbing]). Want to know the real state of the Russian military ask Valentina Melnikova of the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers. (Committee of Soldiers' Mothers. per. Louchnikov 4/3, k. 5 101000 Moscow Tel: 928-2506 Fax: 206-8958). She'll send you some literature.
Sure, the Russians can build a big bad army (on paper), but it's absolutely useless without professionals to lead and man it. Their junior and mid-level officers are disgruntled and their conscript soldiers can barely survive in garrison. And, btw, a lot of these younger officers would rather be in an alliance with the US and UK (as equals, not subordinates- they have their pride too). These are the future leaders of Russia - but let's just shove them aside, ignore them, and push them toward nationalism with our own anti-Russian rhetoric.
Are the Russians doing some things that we might not like? Sure, but what's the real reason behind it? MONEY. You really think they believe it's wise to sell nuclear technology to Iran? Hardly. They know they're just as likely to be a target as anyone else - what they want is the millions it brings in, and I'd be willing to bet that they're hoping that we or Israel take out the Iranian nuke sites. It's win-win for them - they get the money and someone else eliminates the threat.
China? I don't know one Russian who trusts the Chinese. But by playing footsies with them they think they can nullify any threats from the Chinese and, once again, get MONEY from arms sales. (And we surely don't make money from arms sales ???)
Do the Russians want a neo-Communist revolution and world domination? No and No. They're trying to get strong as a country again AND yes, they want to have influence in their own geographical region. Something they probably won't get. Basically, they're trying to get their pride back. I guess Reagan was threatening the world with all the military build-ups and arms sales that went on during his time in office? I don't think so, but if you apply a lot of the arguments that some use to villify Putin and the Russians to Reagan - you could say the same about him.
But hey, let's quote all of these "wise" KGB defectors, like Golytsin, or pawns of Berezovsky, like Epstein, or believe Soros funded publications, and start building our bombshelters. Regarding defectors - the ones who should be revered are the ones who were executed after being betrayed by our traitors. They didn't flee for "riches" in the West. They stayed behind and continued the fight from behind the lines. The ones who fled have hidden agendas: 1) ingratiate themselves on their adopted homeland and 2) justify their actions.
Also, if you knew Russians you would understand this: If they want you to like them or do something for them they will write and say what they think you want to hear. Golytsin was doing what he thought his new masters wanted, just like when he (and Kalugin, and others) were at the beck and call of their KGB comrades - oppressing, repressing their own people. Why don't you go to Russia and ask some of their victims - the ones who are still alive. But hey, they defected to our side so they're "golden." Rubbish. How someone can put complete faith in someone who betrayed their country of birth is beyond me. Just like the FSB agent who "defected" to the UK and blamed the apartment bombings on his fellow FSB agents. Hmm, strange that Berezovsky funded his flight from Russia and strange that he was being investigated for criminal activities and ties to Berezovsky AND the Chechens. But, hey, he's blaming Putin so we'll take his word as the gospel. Yes, the FSB agent in question, Litvienko quit the FSB and started working for Berezovsky. After Berezovsky ran afoul of a Putin and fled to England, Litvienko first started claiming that the FSB had plans to kill Berezovsky, and then he claimed he had evidence of the FSB's alleged complicity in the bombings. The problem was, the Chechen guy he claimed was innocent (a Berezovsky associate) and was being scapegoated was actually photographed in the company of Basaev and company prior to the bombings. Hmmmm... And then there's Paul Klebanov, author of "Godfather of the Kremlin" (Berezovsky). He gets whacked in Moscow and then Berezovsky-controlled media outlets start saying it was Putin and company. Hmmm. Berezovsky hated the guy, sued him, made threats about him, but somehow Putin is to blame. And people on here quote those Berezovsky-controlled media outlets. Dupes.
Oh, but yes, just for making these statements some will infer I am somehow a Russophile, pro-Russian, a stooge, not patriotic. Rubbish. Just pointing out the inaccuracies and hypocrisy here. It's on the level of the inaccuracies and hypocrisy I hear from the old bitter "cold warriors" in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. "America is evil." "Bush wants to take the world over." "America wants to invade Russia." "America wants to enslave Russians." "America is plotting against the great Slavic peoples." "Bush is playing Putin for a fool." "Bush can't be trusted." "The expansion of NATO is an American plot to overtake Russia." "The Americans are planning on using their new bases in Central Asia to attack Russia," "Amerians are pro-Chechen terrorist because they gave asylum to Maskhadov's foreign minister and it proves they are plotting against us." And guess what, the people who spout this crap over there also find plenty of so-called "people in the know" in the media to quote as speaking the gospel.
Thank God the younger generation doesn't buy this b.s. and scoffs at these old fools.
Oh, and the 20 Duma guys and anti-Semitism? Idiots and we have our share of the same. Don't we have a Senator who was a former Grand Kleagal??? Don't we have plenty of racist groups in our own country?
"PERESTROIKA’, THE FINAL PHASE: ITS MAIN OBJECTIVES
(Taken from Anatoliy Golitsyn’s “The Perestroika Deception,” Edward Harle: London, 1995, pp. 17-19)"
Here's the difference - You can read Golytsin's book written in 1995 and I can talk to and know the author of the concepts of "Perestroika" and "Glasnost" - Aleksandr Nikolaevich Yakovlev. Head of the International Democracy Foundation. I suggest you read his books. His book about Glasnost and Perestroika is currently only available in Russian. He's looking for a publisher for an English version. But try to find his other books in English. He points out the real problems with the Soviet Union, it's black past, and Russia's murky future, Lenin's murderous regime continued by Stalin, and co. And, he's a critic of Putin's second term - but somehow still manages to be the head of the Russian Presidential Commission on the Rehabilitation of Politically Repressed Persons. Author of "The GULag," "A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia," "Reabilitatsiya (Rehabilitation)," "Children of the GULag," etc. etc., etc.. Frankly, I'd rather trust a man (who lost a leg in WWII) who had the courage to stick it out and try to change the system from within instead of someone who fled the first opportunity he got (Golytsin - who was a Major at the time of defection and probably not really as "in-the-know" as he claims to be. AND DEFECTED WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY BEFORE PERESTROIKA).
You could also call him and ask him about Golytsin's views and his views on Perestroika - he speaks English. Contact him through the International Democracy Foundation.
"Wow, very interesting. Based on what Golitsyn wrote, it would appear that the very discrediting attacks he foretold are happening right here on FR. Fascinating."
Wow, what an easy way for Golytsin to cast doubt upon anyone who would criticize or refute him. Say that they'll be part of the world-wide communist domination conspiracy. And you fell for it. Oldest trick in the book. "I'm going to say some things, make some claims, and there will be some who try to discredit me. Don't believe them, they're part of the conspiracy!" A nice try to stifle debate and criticism of his claims... Of course, he learned that where?!?!?!
"Koba37, what exactly did you say were doing in Russia/Soviet Union??? I seem to recall you mentioning that you worked in a government capacity and that you write articles. Pray tell, inquiring minds want to know--TTS"
WHY? Who do you work for??!?! I don't know you - you could be one of those 5th Columnists we were warned about. You know, pretending to be anti-Communist, anti-Russian, screaming the loudest about them - but all the while you're working for THEM, the FSB, the world-wide communist conspiracy after our precious bodily fluids!!!!! After all I've never seen you drink water... I.e., none of your business
Koba wrote: “Well this "Cold Warrior" has to get a kick out of the fearmongering going on. I see first hand what this "threat" is - hyped up in the papers, on the net. It's still the paper tiger it was when they were the Soviet Union.”
You are correct, the Soviet Army has always been a paper tiger. The Soviets utilize Marxist-Leninist revolutionary techniques to conquer nations from WITHIN (or they rely on the West to hand them whole regions of the world intact...Yalta comes to mind). They know, just as we should know, direct invasion will simply lead to their defeat (such as Afghanistan...and that's with absolutely ZERO rules of engagement). The following sums up the Communist strategy for World Revolution quite nicely:
Marxism-Leninism, then, is not an ideology, but a strategy for achieving world revolution. Communists are the disciplined members of an international organization that uses Marxist-Leninist techniques. And terrorism is a key ingredient in the success of such revolution. To see how the entire strategy works, we now turn to an overview of Communist revolutions in action.
Because open warfare against target governments would simply lead to defeat, the Communists always disguise their revolutions as civil wars. They camouflage their intentions by pretending to fight for the liberation of one class of people from another, using a divide-and-conquer technique against a nation's social structure. This method is referred to as a "war of national liberation," and it adapts its tactics to the unique circumstances of each country. Such a war can pit industrial workers against capitalists, as in Russia, Catholics against Protestants, as in Northern Ireland, blacks against whites, as in South Africa - or Arabs against Jews, as in Israel. The Communists do not openly identify themselves, acting instead as representatives of the supposedly "oppressed" class of people.
By painting their revolution as a spontaneous uprising of "oppressed masses," the Communists hope to convince the target population that it faces an unwinnable war rooted in fundamental social tensions. If the government is also paralyzed and cannot stop the terrorism, public morale quickly drops and the weakening government loses popular support. Believing that the revolution must eventually win, the population abandons active opposition to the terrorists and instead sues for peace at any cost. The perception ultimately becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as the government collapses altogether.
Koba wrote: “Do the Russians want a neo-Communist revolution and world domination? No and No.”
If you mean by that the Russian people, then we agree. If you are referring to Putin and the KGB/FSB, then your are dead wrong.
Koba wrote: “But hey, let's quote all of these "wise" KGB defectors, like Golytsin, or pawns of Berezovsky, like Epstein, or believe Soros funded publications, and start building our bombshelters. Regarding defectors - the ones who should be revered are the ones who were executed after being betrayed by our traitors. They didn't flee for "riches" in the West. They stayed behind and continued the fight from behind the lines. The ones who fled have hidden agendas: 1) ingratiate themselves on their adopted homeland and 2) justify their actions.”
Golitsyn knew the CIA and the FBI were penetrated by Soviet agents. To stay in place would have been suicide. His only option was to defect.
See the following link for more:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1224848/posts
Koba wrote: “Also, if you knew Russians you would understand this: If they want you to like them or do something for them they will write and say what they think you want to hear. Golytsin was doing what he thought his new masters wanted, just like when he (and Kalugin, and others) were at the beck and call of their KGB comrades - oppressing, repressing their own people.”
You obviously don’t know anything about Golitsyn, see link above. Golitsyn was tossed out of the CIA, as was his main supporter, James Jesus Angleton, for bringing news the CIA/FBI most decidedly DID NOT WANT TO HEAR. As for Kalugin, it is quite clear he’s a phony who was sent by the KGB/FSB to deceive the West...but I have already told you that.
Koba wrote: “Here's the difference - You can read Golytsin's book written in 1995 and I can talk to and know the author of the concepts of ‘Perestroika’ and ‘Glasnost’”
Actually, Golitsyn anticipated Glasnost and Perestroika in his 1984 book “New Lies For Old.” He made 148 extremely detailed predictions of the impending phony collapse of the Soviet Union. Of those 148 predictions, 139 (or 94%) of them came true by 1995. You might want to read his books before you go about slandering Golitsyn’s name.
Koba wrote: “Here's the difference - You can read Golytsin's book written in 1995 and I can talk to and know the author of the concepts of "Perestroika" and "Glasnost" - Aleksandr Nikolaevich Yakovlev.”
Again, Golitsyn’s predictions were published in 1984. However the book was ready for publication in 1980. It took Golitsyn and his supporters in the CIA, MI5 and MI6 four solid years before they could find a publisher will to publish his book (that’s a story in and of itself). As for Yakovlev, I have a feeling you already know my position on his lies.
PS Unlik Kalugin who rakes in the $$$ giving public speeches designed to deceive the West, Golitsyn is still in hiding to this day.
Russians Outlaw Criticism of Govt on Internet
America's youth? Most of them couldn't even find Russia on the map unless you pointed to it!!!
"PS Unlik Kalugin who rakes in the $$$ giving public speeches designed to deceive the West, Golitsyn is still in hiding to this day."
Which shows he's more of a coward than that creep Kalugin is. Kalugin, btw, is probably just as threatened as Golytsin is -he has a 15-year jail sentence hanging over his head AND a lot of p.o.'d former comrades. Of course, if Golytsin came out publically he might have to defend his claims in public. Easier to hide behind such claims when you don't have to respond to them - other than calling the critics dupes.
Let me educate you on some glaring errors of your postings:
" They know, just as we should know, direct invasion will simply lead to their defeat (such as Afghanistan...and that's with absolutely ZERO rules of engagement). The following sums up the Communist strategy for World Revolution quite nicely"
Name one local conflict (other than Chechnya - doesn't fit with this mold) that the Russians have engaged in post-Afghanistan?
"Marxism-Leninism, then, is not an ideology, but a strategy for achieving world revolution. Communists are the disciplined members of an international organization that uses Marxist-Leninist techniques. And terrorism is a key ingredient in the success of such revolution. To see how the entire strategy works, we now turn to an overview of Communist revolutions in action."
Confusing it with the Marxism that Trotsky was a proponent of: Comintern, world revolution. This, while popular in Lenin's day, was actually turned away from in the late 20s and 30s. Granted, they never entirely gave up on the fomenting of revolution or subversion in other countries WHILE they were the Soviet Union. Times have changed. They easily could have turned Ukraine into a model of this if they were really adhering to this principle.
"Because open warfare against target governments would simply lead to defeat, the Communists always disguise their revolutions as civil wars. They camouflage their intentions by pretending to fight for the liberation of one class of people from another, using a divide-and-conquer technique against a nation's social structure. This method is referred to as a "war of national liberation," and it adapts its tactics to the unique circumstances of each country. Such a war can pit industrial workers against capitalists, as in Russia, Catholics against Protestants, as in Northern Ireland, blacks against whites, as in South Africa - or Arabs against Jews, as in Israel. The Communists do not openly identify themselves, acting instead as representatives of the supposedly "oppressed" class of people. "
Actually they fought or became involved in these local conflicts because they were following the "balance of power" principles. If they thought we were getting the upper hand in a region they'd make a countermove, then we would countermove, then they would contermove. Always seeking a zero-sum gain.
"By painting their revolution as a spontaneous uprising of "oppressed masses," the Communists hope to convince the target population that it faces an unwinnable war rooted in fundamental social tensions. If the government is also paralyzed and cannot stop the terrorism, public morale quickly drops and the weakening government loses popular support. Believing that the revolution must eventually win, the population abandons active opposition to the terrorists and instead sues for peace at any cost. The perception ultimately becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as the government collapses altogether."
Apply this to post-Soviet Russia. Oh, what's that you say? You CAN'T?
"If you mean by that the Russian people, then we agree. If you are referring to Putin and the KGB/FSB, then your are dead wrong."
Putin doesn't want world domination, but he (wrongly) is following the French belief that a multipolar world is better than a unipolar world. He knows that Russia cannot be an equal to the US in a bipolar world (like we had during the Cold War), so his way of making Russia relevant in today's world is to seek a part of the sought for multipolar one. They believe the world is more stable if multi-powers exist and are frightened of one superpower (they're wrong of course). Once again, for today's Russian government balance of power politics remains relevant.
"Golitsyn knew the CIA and the FBI were penetrated by Soviet agents. To stay in place would have been suicide. His only option was to defect."
Sure, a Major assigned to the Rezidentura in Helsinki would be privvy to what was going on back at the Centre and would have been informed about KGB moles working in the CIA and FBI. Once again, you do not understand how the KGB operated. AND, must I point out that others were able to continue in-country without being exposed for YEARS after Golytsin defected (google it). So, once again, he was wrong or purposely misleading in order to justify his actions.
"You obviously don’t know anything about Golitsyn, see link above. Golitsyn was tossed out of the CIA, as was his main supporter, James Jesus Angleton, for bringing news the CIA/FBI most decidedly DID NOT WANT TO HEAR. As for Kalugin, it is quite clear he’s a phony who was sent by the KGB/FSB to deceive the West...but I have already told you that."
Golytsin was an arrogant blowhard who provided questionable unverifiable information (search the web on it). Kalugin is surely not a phony sent here by the KGB. He has been sentenced to 15 years in absentia for treason. He has been stripped of his rank/retirement by the KGB. He's an opportunist, like Golytsin, who claims to be an expert in all matters related to security services. The only thing that gives any of his wild claims credibility is that he was a General and may have been privvy to some of that information. Golytsin was a junior office and would not have been entrusted with such things.
"Actually, Golitsyn anticipated Glasnost and Perestroika in his 1984 book “New Lies For Old.” He made 148 extremely detailed predictions of the impending phony collapse of the Soviet Union. Of those 148 predictions, 139 (or 94%) of them came true by 1995. You might want to read his books before you go about slandering Golitsyn’s name."
Hmm, 5 years prior to Perestroika, but not surprising. When he defected Khrushev was in power and was speaking about perestroika type reforms. Of course, Khrushev was ousted and died in disgrace because he was considered not to be toeing the totalitarian line. I guess that also was part of the elaborate plan to fool us all. The Soviet Union imploded in 1991, not 1995.
"As for Yakovlev, I have a feeling you already know my position on his lies."
Hmm, what lies? Please list them here. What have you read of him? Obviously you don't know who he is or what he has written. Go read some of what he has said and you'll feel like a fool for stating he was deceitful. As a matter of fact, you'd probably post some of his articles here if you could understand them (they're critical of Putin). But, since Yakovlev wasn't a KGB defector he shouldn't be trusted???
Once again, please explain how a junior Major who was assigned to the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki could possibly have access to all that he has written about? Unless, of course, someone fed him the lines to justify massive budgets.. But that would never happen would it?
And don't forget to explain how possible it was based on the KGB's very compartmented need-to-know basis structure... Oh, yeah, you can't can you.
The Cold War is over, at least for the sane. But, I really "enjoy" seeing your incessant posts infering that a great man like Ronald Reagan was duped and his legacy is for naught.
Again, you only prove you know next to nothing about Anatoliy Golitsyn. Read his books, then we can have intelligent conversation. Notice I cite all my sources, whereas you engage in verbal semantics and innuendo. Each time you do this, you only expose the incredible lightness of your being.
"There's no need for Golitsyn to defend his claims in public. All of his works are thoroughly footnoted for anyone to check (I have). Again, it's obvious that you have no clue about the importance of Golitsyn's defection. You might want to consider reading his books before presuming to comment on his integrity or his work. He is the most important defector to have EVER defected from the Soviet Union or any of its satellites, period."
I've read his works. There IS a need for him to defend his claims. If they were something he could stand behind he'd do it. He can't, so he doesn't.
Wait a second - in another thread you called Pacepa the most important person to have ever defected. Make up your mind. And to say Golitsyn was the great saviour is an insult to a true hero:
http://www.paperlessarchives.com/penkovsky.html
And you conviently never mention Angleton's (Golitsyn's proponent) very close relationship with Kim Philby. Or this:
"Beginning in 1962 and by 1964, Angleton was in this VERY sick co-dependent "Relationship with a two-bit KGB paranoid "Loser" defector by the name of Anatoliy Golitsyn. When a very high level Second Directorate KGB official (Yuriy Nosenko) defected in 1962, Golitsyn knew and reasonably feared that his limited value to the CIA, FBI and Army Intel would come to a fast conclusion. He had good reason to fear this because he had over-exaggerated his value to the KGB (In reality he was very low level and very mediocre with access to very little information of any real value). Golitsyn played Angleton's paranoia and the two became a continual refueling cycle. All real defectors, Golitsyn and Angleton argued were in effect part of a grand Sino-Soviet conspiracy to fool and misdirect the west. From 1964 until 1974, both the Soviet Division and the Counterintelligence Divisions were at a virtual standstill due to the internal "Witch Hunt" and "Reign of terror" that Angleton and his boys ran in this ten year bogus search for internal moles-Operation "HONETOL." Former Angleton friend and confident, David Murphy, CIA Chief of the Soviet Division, and an original "Fundamentalist" himself, became a suspect of the Counterintelligence crew's internal molehunt in 1968, forcing his transfer from the Soviet Division to Chief of Station in Paris, just because he admitted that he was open to Yuriy Nosenko's bona-fides being legitimate."
or
"HONETOL (an acronym created by fusing HO[OVER] and ANATOL[Y GOLITSYN, a Soviet defector) was the code name for the witchhunt conducted for double agents by CIA Counterintelligence chief James Jesus Angleton, which gutted the Agency during this period. Sullivan provided Angleton with the foot soldiers – bugging and tapping specialists, foot and mobile surveillance – to pursue suspected traitors, all of whom would turn out to be innocent. In the process, he became a full convert to Angleton’s “sick-think” world view. (Dr. Jerrold Post, a CIA psychologist, assessed Angleton as “not clinically paranoid; rather… Angleton had a strong paranoid orientation and propensity.”)"
Hmmm, lots of resources wasted, CI ops at a standstill. All because of Golitsyn's relationship with Angleton. Maybe it's not too much of a coincidence that after Kim Philby, a man who knew Angleton's weaknesses, defected that a Soviet "defector" showed up, played on those weakeness, and lo-and-behold Angleton's decimating the CI operations of the CIA/FBI. Hmmm, why would the Soviets want the Counter-intel guys tied up looking for a mole. Very nice, eh?
And, explain to me why on www.agentura.ru Golitsyn is not on the long list of Soviet and Russian traitors? Strange omission for the "most important defector from the Soviet Union or its satellites."
Aand,I also recommend you read "The Main Enemy" by Milton Bearden (retired CIA agent) to learn more about this and other stories.
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