Posted on 12/17/2004 8:33:59 AM PST by jveritas
In the last few weeks so many threads have been posted on Free Republic regarding the illegal immigration issue. Many of the posters on these threads are not there to discuss the illegal immigration issue in a constructive and logical way, but they have been savagely bashing President Bush and spewing their despise toward him, as bad if not even worse than the most rabid left wing liberals.
The illegal immigration issue is an important discussion forum that we need to debate on FR, but the style and the content of the debate as appeared in many posts have been filled with a despicable hatred toward President Bush.
Many who disagree with President Bush illegal immigration issue are “True Conservatives” and “Faithful Republicans”, but they do it in a constructive criticism rather than hateful speeches. On the other hand, the perpetrators of these hateful posts are the Buchananites and the 3rd party voters.
Illegal immigration is a vital issue that our nation needs to deal with. President Bush has suggested the “Guest Worker Program” which is in some ways a “practical” and “effective” solution to address some but not all of the problems of the 10-15 millions illegal immigrants in the US. However the President still does not address in a clear way what are the effective measures that we need to take to strengthen the control of the Southern borders, and prevent new waves of illegal immigrants coming to the country everyday through the Mexican borders. Also what must be urgently addressed is the abuse perpetuated by many illegal immigrants of states and federal welfare programs. The Guest Worker Program must be very clear that immigrants who are employed under this program are not entitled to welfare help, period.
Now the extreme fringe on FR, want to use the most radical and the dumbest ways to solve the illegal immigration issue. The wackiest of their wacky ideas, is to deport all the illegal immigrants. What a great solution! What this fringe do not take comprehend is that deporting 10 to 15 millions illegal immigrants, require that the states and the federal law enforcement agencies must hire tens of thousand of people and must spend tens if not hundred of billions of dollars to do it, and it will not work. Make no doubt about it that the media will be abusing these scenes of deportation thousand folds than anything they have used and abused in the past. The vast majority of the Americans will not accept days after days of images and videos of the millions of illegal immigrants being put in buses and deported. The courts will be tied up in ten of thousands of cases regarding deporting illegal immigrants and this will cost ten of billions of dollars as well. Eventually, these extreme radical and illogical measures will create a tremendous backlash that will destroy any honest effort to fix the illegal immigration problems.
Another delusional idea to resolve the illegal immigration issue is to heavily fine the businesses who hire illegal immigrants and by doing so these immigrants will return back home because no one is hiring them. WOW! Another genius solution! This idea is as moronic as the deporting the millions of illegal immigrants because it requires tens of thousands of new law enforcement agents and tens of billions of dollars, plus it will be played very badly in the arena of public opinion. Furthermore a very strong sector of the business community will fight it to death and they will not let it happen, period.
In conclusion there is only one logical and practical solution to resolve the illegal immigration problem. Legalize the illegal immigrants via a guest worker program, and at the same type stop new and future waves of illegal immigrants by strongly controlling and tightening the Southern borders.
Enough with the hate Bush threads disguised under the illegal immigration issue. Let us discuss this important issue in an honest, smart, logical and constructive way and let us stop the irrational hateful posts.
tsk tsk. Looks like the RNC buttboys are beginning to feel the heat.
Again my point is that the illegal immigrants who work under the table are not paying taxes, but once they are legalized to work under “Guest Work Program” than they have to pay their shares of taxes.
I want to repeat that the weak part of the “Guest Worker Program” is not having a plan to strengthen the Southern borders to prevent the new wave of illegal immigrants.
Anyone who believes Bush's immigration plan is anything
other than amnesty simply hasn't read the proposal in its
entirety. Bush is perfectly willing to sacrifice border
control and the security of the U.S. for the Hispanic vote. Not only are the illegals bankrupting schools, hospitals, and the entire social service system but any
terrorist could walk across the border. The illegals take
about ten times what they pay in taxes in welfare and social benefits. We're so PC that we deserve what we'll
inevitably get. Bush can't be serious about terrorism or
he wouldn't have opposed Sensenbrener's immigration
measures in the Intelligencce Reform bill. In that respect
he's a moron. T.L. Sink
You're making a mountain of a molehill.
You won't have to prosecute that many, just a few. The rest will get the message and cut their illegals loose.
Meantime we should already have a legit guest worker program in place that doesn't reward lawbreaking. This program, plus our own homegrown entry level job applicants will fill the labor needs of the employers. All that needs to be done is set the whole thing up with advance notice so that employers can start weeding out the illegals with the current voluntary program before it becomes mandatory. That way the only people that are disrupted are the illegal aliens. Many will get the message and leave, especially when they see that those guest workers who obeyed the law are being rewarded with visas and jobs.
Again my point is that the illegal immigrants who work under the table are not paying taxes, but once they are legalized to work under “Guest Work Program” than they have to pay their shares of taxes.
I want to repeat that the weak part of the “Guest Worker Program” is not having a plan to strengthen the Southern borders to prevent the new wave of illegal immigrants.
Legalization is the weakness because it will cause the next wave. We've tried this before, it doesn't work.
You can not reward lawbreaking without encouraging more of it.
Can I guarantee that there will be no more hiring of illegal immigrants? Yes, if we legalize the illegal immigrants who are already here and prevent new waves of illegal immigrants from coming across the borders.
My point about the billions of dollars cost is how to deport millions of illegal immigrants as some on FR want to happen. If you need to send three law enforcement agents to arrest one illegal immigrant, then you do the Math on how much it will cost, just for the phase of arresting him or her. Of course there much more expenses added to that.
You wondered about what I mean that a strong group of businesses that will not allow the enforcement of the law. What I meant is that there are ten of thousand of businesses who hire those illegal immigrants for one way and another, and they will not just stand still if the government to go after them and fine them for hiring illegal immigrants. They will find hundred of loop holes in the current law to protect themselves and their businesses the same way that large corporations and rich people find hundred of loophole in the tax code to avoid paying a lot of taxes.
You fully know that this will never happen. Let me ask you a question and please be honest. If you are a doctor and an illegal immigrant comes to you with a broken leg, would you call the INS to deport him?
What proposal!
You mean that piece of crap that Tancredo is espousing?
There is no proposal that is written in it's entirety. All Bush wanted was for congress to begin work, and as far as I can see, that work has not gone beyond one or two hearings in committee.
The "bill" that would include the presidents language has not yet been written.
The only things floating around are some additions to current law and are not the reforms that Bush wants to enact. The Congress told him to go fly a kite, and that is where it sits.
Of course not.
I doubt it very much. Why? Because every year the INS/IRS crack down on few businesses who hire illegal immigrants but this have not stopped the other thousands of businesses from keeping their illegal workers.
You sound like a whiny liberal whose heart bleeds for illegal aliens who dont respect our laws.
According to you people who want to enforce the laws are crazy and people who break the law are acting logically! I smell something Orwellian.
I am in agreement that after implementing the Guest Worker program we should sanction businesses who hire illegal immigrants, and this is what the President wants.
The reason the problem got worse after the 86 amnesty is that the controls failed. The demand side and the border controls both failed and will continue to fail for the same reasons that they are now.
Our immigrant friendly Constitution
Our various state and local LEO who refuse to get involved.
Various States that provide free services through Medicaid, and other agencies.
The costs and the legal impediments creating a inability to prosecute businesses effectively.
A underground economy that has ballooned in size that accommodates illegals.
Economics, and politics on local and national levels.
In order for a plan to work, it must address all of these and more.The border must be strengthened first, to make it much more difficult to cross. Any plan will take years to implement and border control is a must.
The underground economy must be squashed. Every civil libertarian will fight this tooth and nail, but that is the demand side that draws the illegal in.
The Constitution may need to be amended to correct the anchor baby problem and other legal impediments to immigration controls.
Then and only then, can worker permits and the knowledge gained through these interviews be used to force illegal employers to become legal contributors to the government programs of social security and taxes. Only then will we be able to force them to obtain a federal ID number.
Only when the benefits of coming across the border illegally are eliminated, can legal immigration and temporary worker permits work as intended. There would be no swarm because the illegal crossing would not benefit them. They would be no better off here than there, they would have zero chance of employment. They would not come.
BWAAHHHHHHH. Operation what? Where did you get this from?
If you want to send three law enforcement agents to deport one illegal immigrants, you need 45 millions of them to do the job.
Get real.
PS: I am more conservative than you are.
Most of the Bush "proposal" has been discussed in broad
outline in National Review and several other periodicals.
Bush should listen to Tancredo but unfortunately he'd craw
thru a sewer to get the GOP the Hispanic vote. If you havn't read it I recommend "Mexifornia" by Victor Davis
Hanson. It discusses the many reasons why the out-of-control borders and the sunami of illegals is not only
disastrous for the U.S. but - in the long term - ALSO
for the illegals themselves!
Only when the benefits of coming across the border illegally are eliminated, can legal immigration and temporary worker permits work as intended. There would be no swarm because the illegal crossing would not benefit them. They would be no better off here than there, they would have zero chance of employment. They would not come.
See post #46. You don't need all of your preconditions and your "then and only then." The means to verify eligibility for employment just went online. Employers can do it with an 800 call.
You can't eliminate the benefits of crossing the border illegally by giving illegal aliens the benefit of legalization.
Operation Wetback worked and liberals like you hated it!
BWAAHHHHHHH Anything else you can say but disgruntled animal noises?
PS Being Conservative doesnt mean bending over and being a Bush Bot everytime, especially when Bush is supporting a Left Wing Policy
Yet you continue to advocate a failed solution, thinking it will work when history shows it doesn't.
If you want to see an elevation of the level of debate, start with your own and follow up by not encouraging the excesses of others, which you've not infrequently done.
That's not even close to true. You don't need three agents to one illegal alien. In Temecula, California this summer about a dozen agents apprehended 400 illegals in a three week period simply by going and picking them up where they gather in plain sight. Suddenly illegal aliens were no where to be seen in Temecula and many surrounding areas. Then the La Raza types started pressuring DHS Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson and he caved, ending the sweeps.
There is a large straw man argument being perpetrated by the legalization crowd, that this is such an insurmountable problem. It isn't. Enforcement works, legalization doesn't.
Fix the leg, then call the ins to deport them if they would do it.
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