Posted on 07/24/2003 1:55:39 PM PDT by Mr.Atos
I was just lisening to Medved debating Creationism with Athiests on the air. I found it interesting that while Medved argued his side quite effectively from the standpoint of faith, his opponents resorted to condescension and beliitled him with statements like, "when it rains, is that God crying?" I was reminded of the best (at least most amusing)debate that I have ever heard on the subject of Creationism vs Evolution, albeit a fictional setting. It occurred on the show, Friends of all places between the characters Pheobe (The Hippy) and Ross (The Paleontologist). It went like this...
Pheebs: Okay...it's very faint, but I can still sense him in the building...GO INTO THE LIGHT MR. HECKLES!!
Ross: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What, uh, you don't believe in evolution? Pheebs: Nah. Not really. Ross: You don't believe in evolution? Pheebs: I don't know. It's just, ya know, monkeys, Darwin, ya know, it's a, it's a nice story. I just think it's a little too easy.
Ross: Uh, excuse me. Evolution is not for you to buy, Phoebe. Evolution is scientific fact. Like, like, the air we breathe, like gravity... Pheebs: Uh, okay, don't get me started on gravity.
Ross: You uh, you don't believe in gravity? Pheebs: Well, it's not so much that ya know, like I don't *believe* in it, ya know. It's just...I don't know. Lately I get the feeling that I'm not so much being pulled down, as I am being pushed.
Ross: How can you NOT BELIEVE in evolution? Pheebs: [shrugs] I unh-huh...Look at this funky shirt!!
Ross: Well, there ya go. Pheebs: Huh. So now, the REAL question is: who put those fossils there, and why...?
Ross: OPPOSABLE THUMBS!! Without evolution, how do YOU explain OPPOSABLE THUMBS?!? Pheebs: Maybe the overlords needed them to steer their spacecrafts!
Pheebs: Uh-oh! Scary Scientist Man!
Pheebs: Okay, Ross? Could you just open your mind like, *this* much?? Okay? Now wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed that the Earth was flat? And up until what, like, fifty years ago, you all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open, and this like, whole mess o' crap came out! Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can't admit that there's a teeny, tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?!?
Pheebs: I can't believe you caved. Ross: What? Pheebs: You just ABANDONED your whole belief system! I mean, before, I didn't agree with you, but at least I respected you. Ross: But uh.. Pheebs: Yeah...how...how are you gonna go in to work tomorrow? How...how are you gonna face the other science guys? How...how are you gonna face yourself? Oh! [Ross runs away dejected] Pheebs: That was fun. So who's hungry?
A ... * destructive cult * ... tends to be ... * totalitarian * ... in its ... * control * ... of its members' behavior.
Cults are likely to * dictate * in great detail not only what members believe, but also what members wear and eat, when and where members work, sleep, and bathe, and how members think, speak, and conduct familial, marital, or sexual relationships.
A destructive cult tends to have an * ethical double standard * .
Members are urged to be obedient to the cult, to carefully * follow cult rules * . They are also encouraged to be revealing and open in the group, confessing all to the leaders. On the other hand, outside the group they are encouraged to act unethically, manipulating outsiders or nonmembers, and either deceiving them or simply revealing very little about themselves or the group. In contrast to destructive cults, * honorable groups * teach members to abide by one set of ethics and act ethically and truthfully to all people in all situations.
A destructive cult has only two basic purposes: recruiting new members and fund- raising. Altruistic movements, established religions, and other * honorable groups * also recruit and raise funds. However, these actions are incidental to an honorable group's main purpose of improving the lives of its members and of humankind in general. Destructive cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality such claims are superficial and only serve as gestures or fronts for recruiting and fund-raising. A cult's real goal is to increase the prestige and often the wealth of the leader.
A destructive cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and * instituting the ONLY viable system * for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. But these * claims are empty * and only used to recruit members who are then surreptitiously subjected to * mind control * to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.
A destructive cult is * authoritarian * in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes. There is no appeal outside his or her system to a greater system of justice. For example, if a schoolteacher feels unjustly treated by a principal, an appeal can be made to the superintendent. In a destructive cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.
A destructive cult's leader is a self-appointed messianic person claiming to have a special mission in life. For example, leaders of flying saucer cults claim that beings from outer space have commissioned them to lead people away from Earth, so that only the leaders can save them (( republican party )) from impending doom (( fundies // TROLLS )).
* A destructive cult's leader centers the veneration of members upon himself or herself. *
Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and other leaders of genuinely altruistic movements focus the veneration of adherents on God or a set of ethical principles.
* Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves. *
* A destructive cult's leader tends to be determined, domineering, and charismatic. *
Such a leader effectively persuades followers to abandon or alter their families, friends, and careers to follow the cult.
The leader then * takes control * over followers' possessions, money, time, and lives.
Senator Goldwater
Yeah but (what seems like) a hundred screaming teenagers at a birthday pool party soounds like the fetid breath of death approaching (to mix a few too many metaphors)!
Auuuuuuuuuugh!
Reminds me of the '60s bumpersticker
What if they gave a [flame]war and nobody came?
Stuffed goose science ... premature coronation (( glorification )) of liberal theology and gods of conservative science - thought ...
reminds me of napoleans -- emperors ---
in china THEY CALL THEM DIRT EMPERORS (( raving lunatics )) !
Spectator article by Peter Hitchens ...
"After the case of Dr David Kelly and all that has followed, this is not terribly reassuring. Others might suggest that democracy itself is the rock on which our society is built. But democracy, without the restraint of law and tradition, easily turns into a tyranny of the majority. It has no special virtue of its own, and with its intolerance of minorities and its tendency to elective dictatorship and crowd-pleasing it often threatens liberty, without which democracy is not all that much use. The Thatcherites seemed to think that the market could replace religion, a folly that hastened their downfall and left them morally and culturally empty. As for the left-wing virtues of the egalitarian social conscience, unlike individual conscience this tends to lead people to think that their acts of power and war are justified, not restrained, by the higher good they serve."
"In many ways they are ... more autocratic — if they get the chance — then any mediaeval Christian monarch would have dared to be. History, they proclaim, will forgive them."
Our choice is ...
# 1 - the invisible hand --- ' markets ' --- religious LIBERTY ...
or ...
# 2 - the sock puppets ... social engineers - freaks with the iron (( pink )) fist (( 3rdwayers - liberals )) !
In England - Australia ... classical conservatives are aptly call liberals which is accurate ---
the social engineers require activism - FORCE (( nazis )) and are called socialists - conservatives - ' reformers ' - CONTROLLERS - REPRESSION !
America is going to have to choose ... if we are going to be a # 2 soviet or --- a # 1 republican - free state !
She encouraged the discussion which she knew would lead to it, so yes she broke her part of the agreement. She knew where it was going so your 'lawyering' does not excuse it.
we are all obligated not to bring an accusation against another poster without also showing the evidence of that accusation
More lawyering. I have brought my charges almost immediately at the point of their occurrence. They have been explicit as to what it being spoken about. The evidence was there for all to see. The 'you did not fill out the proper form and forgot to dot and I' is therefore nonsense and beneath you.
Thus, every accusation on this thread made by a complying poster without such evidence on the same post is of no effect whatsoever
This is not only lawyering but sheer hypocrisy - accusing me of doing wrong for complaining of wrongdoing.
One of the most important administrative provisions is the Errors clause because it provides that each side should police their own.
Since every single transgression of the evolutionists has been forcefully excused by them your attacking me for this is both uncalled for and deceitful. I have been asking since the beginning for the evolutionists to show their good faith in holding to this agreement and every single transgression by an evolutionist has been excused by their fellow evolutionists.
The Nazis excused the killing of millions by saying it was necessary to improve the race. The Communists excused the killing of over 100 million because it was necessary to build a better society. The Clintonites excused degeneracy because everyone is a degenerate according to them. So yes anything and everything can be excused. What decent people do is they do not make excuses for wrongful behavior and I have yet to see that here from the side of the evolutionists so your statement is just one more excuse and a veiled accusation of me which is totally unwarranted.
I do not support your allegations regarding the email disclosure.
Seems that in your attempt to excuse the foulest deeds of the evolutionists you are agreeing to the destruction of the whole agreement and its most central principle - GOOD FAITH. Anyone disclosing such private communications is not acting in good faith. This e-mail was clearly disclosed with EXTREME BAD FAITH. First of all it was disclosed as being ALS's way of indicating he was withdrawing from the agreement. THIS WAS A LIE as I showed in post# 2496. Further, my statement that this freepmail was part of an ongoing private goading between ALS and Aric2000 is verified by the following:
There was NO OTHER Freepmail, he sent it unsolicited and unannounced.
I had not sent him ANY freepmail for at least 2 weeks, if that short.
2,499 posted on 08/12/2003 7:22 PM PDT by Aric2000 (If the history of science shows us anything, it is that we get nowhere by labeling our ignorance god)
There had been private goading between them and this was a continuation of it. Aric2000 knew it was goading and knew it was private. It was 'for his eyes only', intended to be kept quiet and as such its use was deceitful, and purposely inflammatory. Therefore this charge against ALS is COMPLETELY OUT OF ORDER on account of the above as well as on account of its breaking a rule of this very site, a rule valid throughout the internet and most importantly a rule that is abided to by all decent people and who all are taught from birth - private things are to be kept private. You know better Alamo-Girl, I know you do, and your excusing this I find totally unbecoming of you.
Since I consider such conduct to be totally beyond the pale I shall delete unread any e-mails from evolutionists or from those who condone their publication under any circumstances.
I also do not support your assertion that VadeRetro’s actions have continued this discord.
Of course it has - he posted the e-mail in order to attack a poster and when the furor ended at post #2503 he restarted. You know better and should be ashamed of yourself.
Although VadeRetro’s use of the word “sub-adult†on 2516 would be inappropriate if addressed to a complying poster
Another shameful and totally dishonest statement by you. The agreement was made to make these threads friendlier to the many who have refused to participate in them because of all the yelling and shouting. It did not create a class of second class citizens. Courtesy and civility was supposed to be extended to EVERYONE
As I mentioned in the previous post, your duty and mine – as belonging to the Creationist/Intelligent Design camp – is to first cleanup our own side
The above I consider dishonest, as a personal attack on me and as an attack on ALS who as I showed on post# 2496 acted in a completely honorable manner. Those who acted dishonorably were all evolutionists.
In no way does this agreement only apply to one side, but as the people you have pinged can see by reading this thread - if one side tries to find fault in the other without first cleaning up their own, there will be flame wars.
You repeat the same dishonesty in your apology. Nothing else needs to be said about it.
Yes, I have been hard on our side, the Creation/Intelligent Design side.
All you have shown is lawyering and excuses for those who I HAVE CLEARLY SHOWN HAVE BROKEN THE AGREEMENT. This agreement was about civility and treating ALL OTHER POSTERS in a civil and courteous manner. This has been broken in spades since the very morning of the agreement. What happened when it was broken? Excuses were made by the evolutionists for a fellow evolutionist. I let that one go. A day later the perpetrator did the same thing again - not a word from anyone - or perhaps more excuses, I let that one go. I reminded people that one of their own had promoted the Nazi discussion, but of course only the one who was not an evolutionist got insulted and called a troll. I let that one go. I complained about the posting of the e-mail - uncivil and deplorable behavior if I have ever seen any (and which in some 10 years on the internet and on boards even before the internet I had never seen) and that was excused too. I also see over a dozen insulting posts by evolutionists to me for daring to complain about this uncivil and totally deplorable behavior - and of course you who are sooooo concerned with proper behavior have said not a word about it.
There have been enough words already. Therefore I ask for those who signed on to this agreement to do what their promises, their honor and their consciences tell them must be done:
1. to charge Vade Retro as a disruptor and a troll and tell him he will be allowed to take the agreement again in 30 days if his conduct warrants it.
2. the same for NakatuX.
3. that the evolutionists themselves request that the personal e-mail be deleted from this thread.
As for you, Alamo-Girl, I will expect you to publicly apologize to ALS.
If the above is not done this agreement is a farce and just an excuse for the evolutionists to continue on their predatory and thuggish tactics on those who disagree with them under the hypocritical veil of an agreement to be civil. Whether this proves to be a farce will depend on all of you and your ACTIONS not your excuses. It will depend on whether you are honorable people and are willing to do what is right and what you promised to do.
Let me just say this to you Alamo-Girl, I am deeply troubled by your posts. Not because of what they say to me or about me, but what they say about you. I realize that the desire to be liked and the desire to be a peacemaker are strong human emotions. I realize that your faith and your conscience are strong. However the above human desires have led you to desert your friends and co-religionists and have made you side with those which have forever shown contempt for your beliefs. Worse, look at what their friendship has cost you - to write the above drivel which I know, for I hold you in far too much respect, must have hurt your conscience, your sense of fairness and your sense of decency to utter. So therefore Alamo-Girl, I ask you to examine your actions in the light of your faith and your conscience before your adherence to your new friends leads you to eternal error.
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