Why I Outsource Offshore

Friday, July 18, 2003 | Me

[LibertyAndJusticeForAll]

We haven't had a southern border for decades.

This website is one trying to stem the tidal wave:
http://www.numbersusa.com/index

[lelio]

I hope you are being sarcastic. Look, I don't like H1B, I don't like government policies that lead to jobs leaving our country, but what was FoxPro supposed to do?

That's the main problem I have. He's been painted into a corner where in order to survive (Fox was doing quite nicely for himself before) he has to go outside the US for labor.
You can't get angry at a man finding a way to feed himself in such a desperate time. Would we all rather he just pi** into the wind and become unemployed like everyone else?
The big elephant here that everyone in the administration is trying to avoid looking at is how to make this global economy work for Americans. I don't buy the argument that we're getting cheap shoes and the ChiComs are getting worthless scraps of paper that look like dollars. Real jobs are being exported wholesale to a communist country that would just rather see us wither away and die. Heck, they can always sell their stuff to someone else.
The only solution to this that I can think of is to return to the days before income tax and rely on tarrifs to fund our government. It probably won't be as much income, but then we're spending way too much on things that they shouldn't do.

[harpseal]

Agreed on the one more step. I have perhaps been a little more charitable than some to Fox Pro. I do wonder how he can sleep at night if he realizes what he has done to his childrens future in the USA.

[lelio]

Actually just wait until he has to compete with IBM's offshoring group.

At that point I would hope that the US government stops all business with IBM. It wouldn't surprise me that they're one of the people behind stopping the "Buy American" plan for our military. Why fund the companies that are selling rope to our hangmans?
I could never understand why companies today outsource their IT needs to IBM, the company that brought you $400/hr consultants that didn't know much more than you already did. Is it really cheaper using them? The only reason I can see it being so is that they can play hardball when someone asks for a raise.

[RockyMtnMan]

Take a look at this jewel, you'll need Acrobat: Riding the Offshoring Wave

This just makes my stomach turn.

[FoxPro]

Do you maintain political risk insurance and/or currency convertability insurance?

Have you tried hiring Amnerican programmers for the same rates you pay Russian programmers?

No and no. No US Java programmer is going to work for $14 per hour. And even if they did, they would probally not have a very good attitude about it.

[RockyMtnMan]

Here's my favorite quote:

"China has the potential to become one of the top offshore markets in five years ’ time, and the attractions of an enormous domestic market (dream on). There are large numbers of skilled, low-cost IT professionals, and government initiatives could have a big impact in areas such as technology education and telecommunications (like Global Crossing). Language and cultural issues will obviously remain substantial."

Sounds like China is ok with giving their citizens a means to compete. I wonder what our government will do to level the playing field.

[RockyMtnMan]

No and no. No US Java programmer is going to work for $14 per hour. And even if they did, they would probally not have a very good attitude about it.

You're right, I would never work for $14 an hour because I can't support my family at that wage. Thanks for lowering my wages courtesy of Russia. Hopefully you're intelligent enough to know when your "team" is sandbagging otherwise they'll take you for a ride even at $14 an hour.

[harpseal]

No US Java programmer is going to work for $14 per hour.

You never know unless you try.

And even if they did, they would probally not have a very good attitude about it.

So you are concerned about attitude. I would suggest that perhaps if you offered the jobs in the USA first you might well be surprised and the economies from using USA programmers wouldmake up for the attitude you presume you will see.

I am really personally glad you are not taking advantage of the government handouts that are available for your operations but then again as a niche operation the recent devaluation of US currency must have had some effect on your costs. Perhaps your attitude on this will change as you see your children living in what is becoming a third world nation.

[FoxPro]

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I did.

That’s a good point, I don’t sleep. I have been a chronic insomniac since early childhood. So that makes me even more lethal, because I can outsource 24/7 and work with them on their schedule.

Actually I do need some sleep after 3 or 4 days, when the buzzing starts and I start losing balance. But even then it takes a good amount of barbiturates or Vodka (never both) to do the trick. Doctors study me now; I am like this cool freak for them to ponder about.

[FoxPro]

intelligent enough to know when your "team" is sandbagging

We fix bid most all projects, and we also strictly adhere to project time tables. Actually this issue has never come up.

[WRhine]

Excellent series of posts there Race. Common Sense is becoming ever rarer these days.

[Nowhere Man]

Why in God's name is this so hard to see for some people??

Well, I think because if some people are doing well themselves, they think the whole world is doing well. That's the only way I can explain it. It will be like that until the spinning wheel stops on their number and then it will be up. I'm with ya, man, I know where you're coming from. The only other thing I can add (if I may get religious for a sec) is what Jesus said on the Cross, "forgive them, Father, they do not understand." Keep up the fight, man, we have nothing to lose.

[RockyMtnMan]

Would you like to make a little bet? Provided the skill sets are similar and we agree to some ground rules. I'll wager I can do what 3 people from your Russian team can do in the same amount of time, at a higher quality level. You get to keep all the work either way and if I win you never talk about offshoring on FR again.

We would need a neutral party to judge the results but I suspect we could find someone.

[Nowhere Man]

That's the main problem I have. He's been painted into a corner where in order to survive (Fox was doing quite nicely for himself before) he has to go outside the US for labor. You can't get angry at a man finding a way to feed himself in such a desperate time. Would we all rather he just pi** into the wind and become unemployed like everyone else?
The big elephant here that everyone in the administration is trying to avoid looking at is how to make this global economy work for Americans. I don't buy the argument that we're getting cheap shoes and the ChiComs are getting worthless scraps of paper that look like dollars. Real jobs are being exported wholesale to a communist country that would just rather see us wither away and die. Heck, they can always sell their stuff to someone else.
The only solution to this that I can think of is to return to the days before income tax and rely on tarrifs to fund our government. It probably won't be as much income, but then we're spending way too much on things that they shouldn't do.

Good point. In my last reply to Race Bannon, I'm not jumping on FoxPro at all, he has to survive like we do so I can't blame him as much as the circumstances that he and we are all in. I'm mainly upset at the notion of the free-traders who believe everything is OK and it is not.

I know myself, when I temped to get by, I worked for a software company in the accounting department that brought over H1B's by the boatload from India. Everyone who worked there was H1B except the accounting department. In a big way, I'm thankful for that experience because I was able to see it and experience it first hand of what is really going on. The salaries, yes, the salaries the H1B's made, they ranged from 40K to 115K. Myself, I'm lucky to top 20K with the wind at my back, the sun shining, going downhill, and all 8 cylinders firing. B-P This was in 1996/97. Sometimes you have to go in the Lion's Den to see what is really going on.

[Lazamataz]

Bingo, you have won the cigar. I did this to make contacts and avoid boredom. I am really not making much money on this. Not enough to pay my mortgage certainly. I suppose I could join the Peace Corp. And I actually looked into this.

I have a method whereby which you could make your mortgage. Please follow through on our discussion.

[Glenn]

The smartest guy in the world was Ed Yourdon on a day in 1992 when he released the book named "Decline and Fall of the American Programmer". He predicted all this outsourcing mess.

The dumbest guy in the world was Ed Yourdon on a day in 1996 when he released the book named "The Rise and Resurrection of the American Programmer".

Outsourcing is an experiment with future results completely unknown. It may be a fad. It may lead to some horror stories down the road about projects gone awry. Legal battles may erupt due to unintended consequences. The government may start taxing outsourced transactions as a way of making up for the loss of income tax.

Don't go all wobbly just yet, folks.

[BlazingArizona]

No US Java programmer is going to work for $14 per hour. And even if they did, they would probally not have a very good attitude about it.

This brings up some related questions: if the offshore team fails to perform or includes some horrendous bug that shows up only after delivery, do you, as the broker, assume all liability? And will regular commercial E & O cover you for such things, or do you have to self-insure?

In either case, what percentage of your rate to the client is insurance against these calamities? How is the liability spread in case of foreign events beyond your control, such as nuclear war between India and Pakistan?

[FoxPro]

This brings up some related questions: if the offshore team fails to perform or includes some horrendous bug that shows up only after delivery,

I would probally move to Moscow. A bottle of good vodka is the equivalent of $2 here.

Actually, in 20 years, I have never worked on a failed computer project, so I am not sure what I would do. It seems like a very remote possibility. Failure is never an option.

[RockyMtnMan]

So does that mean you are unwilling to put your money where your mouth is? See Post