Posted on 07/09/2003 12:08:32 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
Martin Luther said: People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon.... This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.
Was Luther's interpretation of Scripture incorrect? IF so, where else did he go wrong?
Was Copernicus' theory wrong?
At the risk of beating a dead horse I will rephrase Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things] in a way that might make it more clear
When I create light, I create darkness and when I create peace I create evil: etc. This was demonstrated in Genesis --->
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
The Hebrew word translated as divided has this definition according to the Blue letter Bible (www.blueletterbible.org)
1) to divide, separate
a) (Hiphil)
1) to divide, separate, sever
2) to separate, set apart
3) to make a distinction, difference
4) to divide into parts
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
js1138 replies: God of dysentery?
...and then you:
You can spin in any MIScontext you want, but the fact you toads feel compelled to give it so much attention, only goes to PROVE you ALL know it was wrong.
Any side issues you wish to inject are merely side issues, they cannot wipe clean the sins of the transgressor js1138.
Let the Lurker and Honest Observer observe the sickness and parallels of the evos with that of sick minded liberals.
[yada, yada, yada] ...materialistic, atheistic, bible bashing, God hating evolutionists.
VadeRetro and js1138, although I can't speak for them, seem to have just been making a point about the tendency of creationism and/or ID to reveal a "God of the gaps." It is hardly outside the bounds of discourse in the Smokey Backroom to make the piquant observation that relegating God to fiddling with flagella makes him the "God of dysentery".
Rather than addressing the argument about whether creationism teaches a "God of the gaps," and possibly attempting to refute that accusation, you'd rather whine and wail. Fine, it's fairly characteristic of your contributions here anyway. But there is something more you failed to notice before launching into your rant:
Leaving aside the "God of the gaps" problem, it's not just evolutionists who believe that God is indeed the God of dysentery. AndrewC, for example -- at least as I read the implications of what he has just been saying -- would also accept that God is the God of dysentery. In fact I believe the bible teaches that He is the God of dysentery, for He is the God of all things.
All that is was created by him. Hell was created by God, and the bible tells us that He even "creates evil". So what is the big problem with him creating the bugs that cause dysentery?
Although I am a "philosophical" theist, and not a Christian, and not a biblical theist, I agree with some of the things the bible teaches, and I agree with this.
In that sense, maybe I'm more of a creationist than you are. In my view you can't be a thorough-going creationist and theist if you only reserve little nicey-nice puppy dog and cuddley kitty type things for God to create. God is the God of majestic mountains majesty, amber fields of grain, AND of dysentery.
The "grand designer", I presume you mean - I seem to recall a long thread wherein a certain someone appeared to accept that the evidence shows a clear evolutionary path for the flagellum in particular ;)
Not exactly. What was established was that yersinia pestis had flagellar proteins. The question was how they got there. I don't think yersenia pestis has a flagella and it is apparently not using the proteins for secretion.
I seem to have started this mess, and I say fair enough. However, this discussion is just an extension of all the pretty pictures about how wonderful the design is. I do not consider the universe to be about good or evil.
That almost wraps it up. A good summary of what was said and by whom. But it leaves out the motive for starting the discussion, which is the irony of the flagellum being the single best icon of ID, and at the same time characteristic mostly of disease causing organisms. It is one thing for creation to have sufficient freedom to enable the possibility of evil. It is quite another thing to have evil things in such abundance, existing independently of the guilt or innocence of the victims.
That is also fair. But I do consider the universe to be about good and evil, else I would be just a glorified rock.
serious question jennyp: Do you believe js1138's statement was a scientific one? Do you believe he was making your case or that he was enjoying himself when he made his filthy remark?
A scientific statement? Of course not. It was a distillation of what is implied when the flagella is the "poster boy" example of something that had to have been designed by God. As such, there was nothing filthy about it. He was highlighting the absurdity of the position you ID'ers put yourselves into when you latch on to that claim.
I do believe the question has been answered with each desperate post by you and a few others to try to recast his moment of corrupt glee into a biological treatise.
So your answer to my two-part question...
Do you believe that God designed the H. pylori's flagellum? And since H. pylori specifically uses its flagellum to attack the intestine, thus causing diarrhea, did God design diarrhea?...is "yes". Thank you. Now, I'm wondering if you believe that bacterial diseases such as diarrhea came about as part of The Fall? As I understand it, in The Fall God removed His protection against the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, thereby allowing death & deterioration & destruction to occur. IOW, The Fall did not consist of God making positive acts of design to create the world's deadly & destructive things; they came about as the natural consequence of the material world.
So if the deadly flagella came about as part of The Fall, then it was part of corrupt nature taking its course, and not because of any affirmative, positive step that God made. But of course that means that it must have evolved and was not designed.
But you say that the flagella, which is the very instrument of death for H. pylori, E. coli, & others, was created by a positive, affirmative act of creation by God.
So help me out, ALS. Help me understand how you resolve this contradiction in your belief system? And if there is no contradiction, then please tell me precisely where my description of your beliefs re: the flagella is incorrect?
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