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Biology textbook hearings prompt science disputes [Texas]
Knight Ridder Newspapers ^ | 08 July 2003 | MATT FRAZIER

Posted on 07/09/2003 12:08:32 PM PDT by PatrickHenry

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To: bondserv
You are quite welcome! I was getting a bit concerned also since half of my family is Catholic. We talk about Jesus all the time, so I was puzzled why a subject of such importance never came up.
4,101 posted on 07/17/2003 9:28:57 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: CobaltBlue
I hope the correspondences you have had with Alamo-Girl have sparked a desire for you to research spiritual things in your Bible.

There are many different members to the Body of Christ and Jesus wishes to relate His game plan to each believer.

I believe the Catholic catechism is referencing the "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters", as a participatory role in the creation.

I have not seen any references in the Bible that describe the Holy Spirit as Creator, however. I will verify this.

Many of us are praying you will seek God personally with your questions as well.
4,102 posted on 07/17/2003 9:30:09 PM PDT by bondserv (Alignment is critical.)
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To: PatrickHenry
At one time (during the 1960s) Wisconsin did not (in general) recognise divorces granted in (some) other states. Neither did Wisconsin recognise marriages subsqeuent to such divorces. It was irrelevant whether the original marriage took place in Wisconsin. Lots of scams arose from this state of affairs.
4,103 posted on 07/17/2003 9:32:05 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: All; gore3000
***RETRACTION***

Regarding my dispute with gore3000 about whether experiments that I cited from the 6th edition of The Origin of Species also appeared in the 1st edition:

gore3000 has graciously conceded, in his reply to a private email, that his search of the 1st edition text was hasty and missed relevant parallel passages. He has given me permission in a subsequent email to convey that concession here.

I accept gore3000's explanation, and I withdraw my claim that he was lying about having checked the text, or the result thereof.

Principal preceeding messages:

Gore (repeats) request for "an example of ONE (1) experiment in the Origins".
#3316

I reply with examples.
#3493

gore3000 suggests I used the 6th edition because my examples didn't appear in the 1st edition, and says he checked this.
#3698

I respond with a table laying out relevant passages from 6th and 1st editions side-by-side. I call gore3000 a liar.
#3813

gore3000 had not publicly responded to the preceeding message, but I reply to another freeper mistakenly thinking it was gore3000. I repeat and expand my charge that he was lying.
#3836

It appears to me from gore3000's email that a disagreement remains between us, but I consider it trivial. Nevertheless I should add that gore3000's concession was specifically with respect to the pidgeon experiments. He seems to take the same position as the freeper I mistakenly responded to in the last message linked, that the red clover fertilization experiments should not be said to be present in the 1st edition (presumably because of the differences I flagged in my table). I've already given my position on this in that last (mistakenly addressed) message.

I hope I've been fair to gore3000 with this summary, and request that he respond if I have not.

4,104 posted on 07/17/2003 9:45:39 PM PDT by Stultis
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To: ALS
God of dysentery? ...

... you are openly disgusting

live with it

I don't know about dysentery - bacteria with flagella could well cause that as well for all I know. But the article does mention this:

Bacteria can move across surfaces in organized swarms, and quickly colonize a new food source such as your own much larger cells. When swarming, they often grow more flagella than usual and make cell-to-cell contacts with these flagella (37). Some bacteria also use their flagella to hang on to our cells as they try to break in and eat the cell contents (38. Girón JA, Torres AG, Freer E, Kaper JB. (2002). The flagella of enteropathogenic Escherichia coli mediate adherence to epithelial cells. Molecular Microbiology 44(2):361-379.).

This brings us to the dark side of design. Flagella participate in the cause of quite a few bacterial diseases, including diarrhea (38), ulcers and urinary tract infections (39. McGee DJ, Coker C, Testerman TL, Harro JM, Gibson SV, Mobley HL. (2002). The Helicobacter pylori flbA flagellar biosynthesis and regulatory gene is required for motility and virulence and modulates urease of H. pylori and Proteus mirabilis. Journal of Medical Microbiology 51(11):958-970.). If the Designer is directly responsible for flagella then he is implicated as a cause of human diseases. Diarrhea is no joke; it is a leading cause of infant death in some parts of the world. To make matters worse, one can hardly give the Designer credit for flagella without also crediting him with TTSS's in general (40). This puts the Designer solidly behind Bubonic plague (41, 42) and many other diseases (43). Happily, science makes such beliefs unnecessary.

Your hero Behe claims God the unembodied, unnamed Designer purposely designed the flagellum. This brings up the obvious question: Why? Why was God singularly interested in designing H. pylori, E. coli, et. al.?

You know, there is some off-and-on theoretical discussion being done over at ARN about Multiple-Designer Theory (MDT). This is where multiple designers are posited, each one designing organisms that are inherently in opposition to each other: flagellar bacteria vs. humans, wasps vs. caterpillars, infectious agents in general vs. hosts with immune systems, predators vs. prey, etc. Do you maybe subscribe to MDT to explain things like flagellar bacteria?

4,105 posted on 07/17/2003 9:49:24 PM PDT by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: jennyp
You know, there is some off-and-on theoretical discussion being done over at ARN about Multiple-Designer Theory (MDT). This is where multiple designers are posited, each one designing organisms that are inherently in opposition to each other: flagellar bacteria vs. humans, wasps vs. caterpillars, infectious agents in general vs. hosts with immune systems, predators vs. prey, etc. Do you maybe subscribe to MDT to explain things like flagellar bacteria?

Hmm, they're coming closer. Perhaps if they allow the number of designers to approach infinity. The limit will be the Darwinian Unit of Selection!

4,106 posted on 07/17/2003 10:12:11 PM PDT by Nebullis
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To: Alamo-Girl
Great posts tonight, AG. I think your answers have been right on, falling in line with everything I know, believe and hear from the Spirit myself. I think I'm done on this topic but if you would, please ping me to anything else you might say here.
4,107 posted on 07/17/2003 10:37:25 PM PDT by scripter
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To: scripter
Thank you so very much for the encouragement and especially the Spiritual confirmation! If I say anything new you might be interested in, I'll give you a heads up! Hugs!!!
4,108 posted on 07/17/2003 10:42:31 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: jennyp
Crossing a brontosaurus with a pentitente could lead to a dangerous dinoflatellate.
4,109 posted on 07/17/2003 11:00:07 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: balrog666
all those gods satan placemaker !
4,110 posted on 07/18/2003 12:49:05 AM PDT by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: Alamo-Girl
IMHO, sometimes we are called upon to plant a seed. Someone else, later on, would then see the fruition of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. It's not up to us to 'close the deal'. Just to open the door of opportunity, as we are called to do.

4,111 posted on 07/18/2003 3:20:56 AM PDT by NewLand
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To: jennyp; All
and you got all that from this filthy slur?

God of dysentery?

3,890 posted on 07/17/2003 2:16 PM CDT by js1138

From the looks of you evo's attachment to things anal, you ALL are merely taking license to sign on to js1138's disgusting God Bashing spree.

4,112 posted on 07/18/2003 3:42:20 AM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: CobaltBlue
Tribe's article (good find, by the way) says this: "... for the Constitution delegates to the United States no power to create categorical exceptions to the Full Faith and Credit Clause." I find it disturbing to agree with Tribe on anything, but I think he's got that right. That is, being married in one state means being married in all (just as a Reno divorce was a divorce in all states). Anyway, we can't decide this issue here. It will have to play itself out in realtime, first with a state legalizing gay marriage, then with another state refusing to recognize it, then into the courts and up the chain of appeals. I predict that Dred Scott will be cited in the final decision, as loathesome as it may be to invoke it, but it's good authority for the nation-wide recognition of an unpopular status created in one state.

This subject is off-topic for this thread, so I suggest we let it drop. There must be gay marriage threads where this issue can play out in all its glory, and such would be the appropraite forum to continue this conversation. (Actually, I don't care about the issue all that much, and I probably wouldn't participate in such a thread.)

4,113 posted on 07/18/2003 3:49:34 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Idiots are on "virtual ignore," and you know exactly who you are.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Placemarker.
4,114 posted on 07/18/2003 4:09:48 AM PDT by Junior (Killed a six pack ... just to watch it die.)
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To: Stultis
I hope I've been fair to gore3000 with this summary, and request that he respond if I have not.

It has been fair.

4,115 posted on 07/18/2003 4:21:56 AM PDT by gore3000 (Intelligent people do not believe in evolution.)
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To: bondserv
Honestly, I see the argument that Jesus is the Creator is more of a political statement than a statement of faith.

Maybe because it's being advanced by fundamentalists, whom I perceive as being motivated by politics, not by faith.

Fundamentalists reject authority other than their own. They reject scientific authority that conflicts with fundamentalism, they reject governmental authority that conflicts with fundamentalism, and they reject religious authority that conflicts with fundamentalism.

Elevating Jesus to the spot usually reserved for God the Father is part of that, it seems to me.

Anyway, gotta go to court, so will think more on this later.
4,116 posted on 07/18/2003 4:22:01 AM PDT by CobaltBlue (Never voted for a Democrat in my life.)
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To: CobaltBlue

4,117 posted on 07/18/2003 4:32:58 AM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: MitchellC
Are you re-asking because you think 9 month olds don't have any assumptions or instincts about anything at all? Is there an infinite regress of observations?

No, i don't think they're a tabula rasa. They obviously have an innate capacity of making inductions and for intelligence. We aren't, after all, chimpanzees; we have something they lack. My point is that infants, and adults to a great extent do not make explicit assumptions; and that the implicit assumption one might detect in the law of induction (that, in general, under the same circumstances, observations tend to repeat themselves) is one that philosophers have tended in equal parts to ignore and reject. It is clear that intelligent living organisms (not just humans) tend to look for order even in random events. Note, however, that the experiments we've done to detect that tendency are scientific; they were not unearthed by philosophy.

I therefore maintain my postion that the philosophical basis for science, as for the logic that underlies everyday life, is negligible. The formalization of logic came after its first use; the formalization of mathematics came late in its development; modern philosophical analysis of science came long after modern science itself. I won't argue that philosophy is worthless (though I won't argue the contrary either); I will argue that it is irrelevant to science, and it is largely relevant only to philosophers.

4,118 posted on 07/18/2003 6:27:40 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: CobaltBlue
Honestly, I see the argument that Jesus is the Creator is more of a political statement than a statement of faith. Maybe because it's being advanced by fundamentalists, whom I perceive as being motivated by politics, not by faith.

I think we are motivated by SCRIPTURE: It comes right from Scripture.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Col. 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

4,119 posted on 07/18/2003 6:43:04 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: jennyp
Some bacteria also use their flagella to hang on to our cells as they try to break in and eat the cell contents ...

Here's a great article on how these buggers work.

Here's one specifically on Shigella, the cause of dysentery and a relative of E. coli.

So back to ALS:

Your hero Behe claims God the unembodied, unnamed Designer purposely designed the flagellum. This brings up the obvious question: Why? Why was God singularly interested in designing H. pylori, E. coli, et. al.?

4,120 posted on 07/18/2003 6:45:55 AM PDT by js1138
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