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If Secession Was Illegal - then How Come...?
The Patriotist ^ | 2003 | Al Benson, Jr.

Posted on 06/12/2003 5:58:28 AM PDT by Aurelius

Over the years I've heard many rail at the South for seceding from the 'glorious Union.' They claim that Jeff Davis and all Southerners were really nothing but traitors - and some of these people were born and raised in the South and should know better, but don't, thanks to their government school 'education.'

Frank Conner, in his excellent book The South Under Siege 1830-2000 deals in some detail with the question of Davis' alleged 'treason.' In referring to the Northern leaders he noted: "They believed the most logical means of justifying the North's war would be to have the federal government convict Davis of treason against the United States. Such a conviction must presuppose that the Confederate States could not have seceded from the Union; so convicting Davis would validate the war and make it morally legitimate."

Although this was the way the federal government planned to proceed, that prolific South-hater, Thaddeus Stevens, couldn't keep his mouth shut and he let the cat out of the bag. Stevens said: "The Southerners should be treated as a conquered alien enemy...This can be done without violence to the established principles only on the theory that the Southern states were severed from the Union and were an independent government de facto and an alien enemy to be dealt with according to the laws of war...No reform can be effected in the Southern States if they have never left the Union..." And, although he did not plainly say it, what Stevens really desired was that the Christian culture of the Old South be 'reformed' into something more compatible with his beliefs. No matter how you look at it, the feds tried to have it both ways - they claimed the South was in rebellion and had never been out of the Union, but then it had to do certain things to 'get back' into the Union it had never been out of. Strange, is it not, that the 'history' books never seem to pick up on this?

At any rate, the Northern government prepared to try President Davis for treason while it had him in prison. Mr. Conner has observed that: "The War Department presented its evidence for a treason trial against Davis to a famed jurist, Francis Lieber, for his analysis. Lieber pronounced 'Davis will not be found guilty and we shall stand there completely beaten'." According to Mr. Conner, U.S. Attorney General James Speed appointed a renowned attorney, John J. Clifford, as his chief prosecutor. Clifford, after studying the government's evidence against Davis, withdrew from the case. He said he had 'grave doubts' about it. Not to be undone, Speed then appointed Richard Henry Dana, a prominent maritime lawyer, to the case. Mr. Dana also withdrew. He said basically, that as long as the North had won a military victory over the South, they should just be satisfied with that. In other words - "you won the war, boys, so don't push your luck beyond that."

Mr. Conner tells us that: "In 1866 President Johnson appointed a new U.S. attorney general, Henry Stanburg. But Stanburg wouldn't touch the case either. Thus had spoken the North's best and brightest jurists re the legitimacy of the War of Northern Aggression - even though the Jefferson Davis case offered blinding fame to the prosecutor who could prove that the South had seceded unconstitutionally." None of these bright lights from the North would touch this case with a ten-foot pole. It's not that they were dumb, in fact the reverse is true. These men knew a dead horse when they saw it and were not about to climb aboard and attempt to ride it across the treacherous stream of illegal secession. They knew better. In fact, a Northerner from New York, Charles O'Connor, became the legal counsel for Jeff Davis - without charge. That, plus the celebrity jurists from the North that refused to touch the case, told the federal government that they really had no case against Davis or secession and that Davis was merely being held as a political prisoner.

Author Richard Street, writing in The Civil War back in the 1950s said exactly the same thing. Referring to Jeff Davis, Street wrote: "He was imprisoned after the war, was never brought to trial. The North didn't dare give him a trial, knowing that a trial would establish that secession was not unconstitutional, that there had been no 'rebellion' and that the South had got a raw deal." At one point the government intimated that it would be willing to offer Davis a pardon, should he ask for one. Davis refused that and he demanded that the government either give him a pardon or give him a trial, or admit that they had dealt unjustly with him. Mr. Street said: "He died 'unpardoned' by a government that was leery of giving him a public hearing." If Davis was as guilty as they claimed, why no trial???

Had the federal government had any possible chance to convict Davis and therefore declare secession unconstitutional they would have done so in a New York minute. The fact that they diddled around and finally released him without benefit of the trial he wanted proves that the North had no real case against secession. Over 600,000 boys, both North and South, were killed or maimed so the North could fight a war of conquest over something that the South did that was neither illegal or wrong. Yet they claim the moral high ground because the 'freed' the slaves, a farce at best.


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To: capitan_refugio
The Radical Republicans are grossly maligned in history books. That the GOP today largely believes the lies about them is why the party is so ineffective even todat.
621 posted on 06/27/2003 12:18:35 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: GOPcapitalist
The Court has ruled, in several cases, that the president -can- suspend the Writ.

Quote them.

“We begin our analysis with the use of martial law in contested territory, whether in the border states or the South. Such use of martial law was not unprecedented. During the American revolution, the Continental Congress reacted to threatened British attacks in Pennsylvania and Delaware by authorizing a form of martial law: “[W]hereas, principles of policy and self-preservation require all persons who may be reasonably suspected of aiding or abetting the cause of the enemy may be prevented from pursuing measures injurious to the public weal,” Congress authorized state governors to arrest and confine disloyal residents. Similarly, General Jackson imposed martial law in New Orleans when the city was threatened by the British during the war of 1812. He took martial law to extraordinary lengths, expelling the French consul (though France was a friendly power), arresting the author of a letter to the editor for repeating rumors that peace had arrived (which turned out to be true), and ultimately arresting a federal judge and district attorney for interfering with these actions.

In a third pre-civil war instance of martial law, the issue ultimately reached the Supreme Court. In Luther v. Borden, the Supreme Court resoundingly upheld the use of martial law, in an opinion by none other than Chief Justice Taney. The case involved a dispute over the legitimacy of the state government in Rhode Island, a dispute that had been resolved in favor of the existing government. In putting down an effort to displace the government by a rival group, the governor had declared martial law. “[U]nquestionably,” Taney pronounced, “a State may use its military power to put down an armed insurrection, too strong to be controlled by the civil authority.” The power to do so “is essential to the existence of every government, essential to the preservation of order and free institutions, and is necessary to the State of this Union as to any other government.” “Thus “[I]f the government of Rhode Island deemed the armed opposition so formidable, and so ramified throughout the State, as to require the use of military force and the declaration of martial law, we see no ground upon which this court can question its authority.” The case involved “a state of war, and the established government rights and useages of war to maintain itself, and to overcome unlawful opposition.” Hence, the military could arrest suspected supporters of the insurrection and could break into houses where such individuals might be hidden, all without a warrant. Without power to do this, martial law and the military array of the government would be mere parade, and rather encourage attack rather than repel it.”

...Luther was later strongly reaffirmed in Justice Holmes’s opinion in Moyer v. Peabody. In response to a violent miner’s strike, the governor had declared the affected county to be in a state of insurrection and called out the national guard. He arrested the union’s president and held him for several months without trial. Justice Holmes saw no constitutional difficulty. “Of course,” Holmes said, the “plaintiff’s position is that he had been deprived of his liberty without due process of law.” But due process depends on the circumstances. Under federal law, the governor was authorized to call out the national guard in response to invasion or insurrection.”That means that he shall make the ordinary use of the soldiers to that end; that he may kill persons who resist, and, of course, that he may use the milder measure of seizing the bodies of those whom he considers to stand in the way of restoring peace.”

-- Lincoln’s Constitution” pp 148-49 by Daniel Farber

“In any event, if prior congressional authorization was needed, it probably did exist. In the special secession called by Lincoln, Congress ratified all of his orders relating to the militia or armed forces. Since Lincoln’s suspension directive took the form of an authorization to General Scott, this may well have ratified at least past suspension in cases like Merryman. But, even before the special session, Lincoln already probably had whatever congressional authorization he needed, at least for the initial emergency suspension in Merryman. This source of authority was the militia act. This theory was adopted in Ex parte Field, where the federal circuit held that the statutes empowering Lincoln to call out the militia also implicitly authorized him to declare martial law and hence to suspend habeas.”

Ibid, p 162

Walt

622 posted on 06/27/2003 2:43:47 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: nolu chan
Re # 608.

None of that means squat. See the Prize Cases ruling.

Walt

623 posted on 06/27/2003 2:50:59 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
The truth is, this idea of the existence of any necessity for clothing the President with the war power, under the Act of 1795, is simply a monstrous exaggeration; for, besides having the command of the whole of the army and navy, Congress can be assembled within any thirty days, if the safety of the country requires that the war power shall be brought into operation.

But as the majority opinion noted, the entire executive power rests with the president.

President Lincoln did not -have- to call a special session. He called Congress in 4 months early at least, before it was scheduled to meet.

You neo-confederates, in your haste to smear President Lincoln, would take him to task for not calling Congress faster than he did.

You should contemplate a time when he had NO intention of calling the new Congress early -- in 1865. Some members of that Congress had blood in their eye, and he meant to forestall them.

When President Lincoln met with Sherman and Grant early in April, 1865, he urged them to go easy with the soon to be surrendered rebel armies in their fronts, and they did. He expected to have many of the difficulties with establishing the rebel states back in their proper relation with the national government ironed out by December, when the new Congress would meet. He probably would have too, but he was called away.

What it really comes down to, as always, is "mean old Lincoln kicked our butts!"

You can't let the facts or a reasonable interpretation get in the way of smearing a great and good man.

Walt

624 posted on 06/27/2003 3:20:56 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: capitan_refugio
He would have made a good "talking head" on some of the Sunday news/opinion shows.

LOL - I would have to agree. He was a strange man, many today despise him.

625 posted on 06/27/2003 4:24:30 AM PDT by 4CJ ("No man's life, liberty or property are safe while dims and neocons are in control")
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To: nolu chan
Eleven states simply left the Articles of Confederation in Perpetual Union behind, in direct violation of the terms of that compact. That compact provided that not one word of it could be changed without the consent of Rhode Island (and all the other states).

I agree my friend, but the DIMS just can't understand it. We must still be operating under the Articles in their view.

626 posted on 06/27/2003 4:26:09 AM PDT by 4CJ ("No man's life, liberty or property are safe while dims and neocons are in control")
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To: capitan_refugio
It didn't really matter if Davis was tried in court or not. He was already a loser. The politics of the North were to mete out the punishments. Jefferson Davis did not have any rights. He was a rebel and had lost his citizenship.

Punishment ex post facto is unconstitutional. Jefferson Davis renounced his US citizenship by remaining with his state - his US citizenship derived from it once being part of the union. When it left, Davis went with it. No treason, and the government knew it. Davis WANTED a trial to PROVE his innocence of that charge. The government was a yellow-bellied, gutless chicken.

627 posted on 06/27/2003 4:30:00 AM PDT by 4CJ ("No man's life, liberty or property are safe while dims and neocons are in control")
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To: Grand Old Partisan
Can't you ever admit a mistake?

Yes. In fact, I apologized to Walt yesterday re: the dissent in the Prize Cases.

The Radical Republicans were few in number and had hardly any influence at all until nearly two years after the Civil War ended ...

You need to read The Logic of History by Stephen Carpenter (a Northen editor). He blows that myth out of the water.

628 posted on 06/27/2003 4:31:56 AM PDT by 4CJ ("No man's life, liberty or property are safe while dims and neocons are in control")
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Davis WANTED a trial to PROVE his innocence of that charge.

But then Chief Justice Chase offered the loophole of the 14th Amendment to jump through. If Davis' lawyers were so sure that he would be acquitted then why did they unanimously urge him to take the out that the Chief Justice proposed?

629 posted on 06/27/2003 4:38:41 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: mdmathis6
The war was fought so that 50-80 years later there would be a economic and military power house to counter balance the Isms of Europe

You are operating on the erronious opinion that the defeat of the Central Powers in WWI was a good thing. If Wilson had kept his promise to keep America out of the war - and possibly engaged in "shuttle diplomacy" to end the war, the great "..isms" of Europe may never have taken hold. WWI was the most stupid war in history and the so called victory merely planted the seeds for WWII.

630 posted on 06/27/2003 4:56:39 AM PDT by reg45
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To: Non-Sequitur
"So you honestly believe that the Supreme Court was incapable of making an impartial decision in this matter? "

So, in considering the SCOTUS's moranic ruling about racial preferences -- based on their partisan beliefs -- NOT an impartial decision, you still think it's hard to believe that a bunch of Lincoln-loyal yankee supremes would vote on a case involving secession impartially?

If you can believe that then you probably think OJ was innocent and BJ Clitoon never lies.

631 posted on 06/27/2003 5:08:12 AM PDT by Lee'sGhost (Crom!)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Admitting a mistake does not call for an apology.

Where Stephen Carpenter was from is not nearly as important as his political affiliation. From the following (verging on insane) excerpt (1864), it is obvious that he was a Copperhead (northern Democrat sympathizer with the rebels):

"The revolutionary doctrines espoused by the Republican party are the context without which the events of 1860 onward cannot be properly understood. The war was not begun against the South, nor was it ever carried on thereafter, with the mere emancipation of the Southern slaves in view. The shocking Republican documents, speeches, and newspaper clippings collected into this book prove that the “party of Lincoln” was bent on the dissolution of the Union from its very formation in 1854, and only abandoned this agenda in favor of “preserving the Union” when its members perceived the wealth and power to be harvested from the destruction and subjugation of a militarily inferior South."

632 posted on 06/27/2003 5:12:24 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: Lee'sGhost
So, in considering the SCOTUS's moranic ruling about racial preferences -- based on their partisan beliefs -- NOT an impartial decision, you still think it's hard to believe that a bunch of Lincoln-loyal yankee supremes would vote on a case involving secession impartially?

Do you think that a court with a majority of southern justices could have issued an impartial decision on secession?

633 posted on 06/27/2003 5:12:26 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Grand Old Partisan; 4ConservativeJustices; justshutupandtakeit
The day after Washington was inaugurated, what nation did NC and RI belong to?

What government held the right to tax them?

In what government did they have a right to be represented?

634 posted on 06/27/2003 5:14:12 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Which members of Congress in 1865 had blood on their hands?
635 posted on 06/27/2003 5:14:34 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
CORRECTION:

Which members of Congress had blood in their eye?
636 posted on 06/27/2003 5:15:42 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
JJust about every ex-rebel requested a pardon from the President, the only exception being Jefferson Davis, so the postion you and Davis share on the subject is aslo contrary to the postion of all the other ex-Confederates.
637 posted on 06/27/2003 5:20:10 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: Non-Sequitur
NO!!!!! That's my point.

You asked me: "So you honestly believe that the Supreme Court was incapable of making an impartial decision in this matter?"

You question implies that you think they could. I have no reason to believe that Southern justices would be any less bias than the ones from the north -- that just proves my point about biasness. But all that really has nothing to do with the point -- being that it was a foregone conclusion that ANY matter related to secession voted on by the post-war SCOTUS would favor anti-secessionists. Holding court was just a formatlity, or a farse, depending on your point of view.

638 posted on 06/27/2003 5:21:59 AM PDT by Lee'sGhost (Crom!)
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To: Lee'sGhost
If you want to call it a biased decision then fine. If you want to believe that the court is incapable of issuing an impartial decision then go ahead. But regardless of how you feel about a court decision, it is a valid decision and it is binding. Secession as practiced by the southern states was, and still is, unconstitutional.
639 posted on 06/27/2003 5:24:35 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: nolu chan
Clever, but not enough. You assume, for one thing, that the inauguration of the President marked the beginning of the United States. Prior to that, Congress and the Electoral College had already met. The Constitution went into effect the instant the ninth state ratified, so your point obout North Carolina and Rhode Island applied just as much to the tenth state to ratify before it did so. None of the states yet to ratify in any way claimed to be indepdent or outside the Union, and that's what matters in countering the position that secession from the United States was equivalent to the position of the states 10-13 prior to ratification.

States 10-13 operated in the meantime under the Articles of Confederation, meaning that no federal government could tax them and that they had a right to be represented in Congress.
640 posted on 06/27/2003 5:29:21 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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