Posted on 04/22/2003 1:54:17 AM PDT by nickcarraway
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has been forced to apologise to Britain's 330,000 Freemasons after he said that their beliefs were incompatible with Christianity and that he had rejected them from senior posts in his diocese.
Dr Williams has written to Robert Morrow, the Grand Secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England, in an attempt to defuse the row prompted by comments he made last year. In his letter, the Archbishop apologises for the "distress" he caused and discloses that his own father was a member of the Craft.
Freemasons, many of whom are active members of the Church of England, reacted angrily to his disclosure that he "had real misgivings about the compatibility of Masonry and Christian profession" and by his admission that, as Bishop of Monmouth, he had blocked the appointment of Freemasons to senior appointments.
His comments about Freemasons were in a private letter leaked to the media shortly after Downing Street confirmed his appointment as head of the Church of England.
Subsequent attempts by his advisers to defuse the row only caused further offence. A spokesman said the Archbishop was worried about the ritual element of Freemasonry, which has been seen as "satanically inspired".
In his letter of apology, Dr Williams tries to distance himself from his own reported comments. He claims that his views were never meant to be public and were distorted by the media.
He wrote: "I have been sorry to learn of the distress of a considerable number of Freemasons . . . In replying to private correspondence, I had no intention of starting a public debate nor of questioning the good faith and generosity of individual Freemasons and I regret the tone and content of the media coverage."
He added: "The quoted statements about the 'satanic' character of the Masonic ceremonies and other matters did not come from me and do not represent my judgment. Since my late father was a member of the Craft for many years, I have had every opportunity of observing the probity of individual members."
Dr Williams does not, in his letter, deny that he has misgivings about the role of Freemasons within the Church.
He wrote: "Where anxieties exist, however, they are in relation not to Freemasonry but to Christian ministers subscribing to what could be and often is understood [or misunderstood] as a private system of profession and initiation, involving the taking of oaths of loyalty."
He ends his letter by stating that Freemasons' commitment to charity and the community is beyond question.
I think I can speak for the VFW when I say yup, membership's down there too. We are losing a lot of WW II vets.
I think we may be on different pages. If you mean to say that you believe the bullsh#t, then I can't help you.
I am saying that it is bullsh*t because, it does not exist.
Though I'm not going to hold my breath.
That's a shame, about your membership and about the loss of WWII vets. Our Nation waited entirely too long to build a WWII monument to them.
ooh... you are going to catch looooooooooooots of flames for that one
Ask to join the lodge we will tell you all you want to know.
If you want something to be afraid of, be afraid of your children being instructed by a gay priest.
Can't speak for em all, but at our lodge we mostly sit around and talk about what the Arkansas Razorbacks football team is doing.
If you are implying that allowing priests to marry would eliminate the pedophilia, you are wrong. Pedophilia is not 'resolved' through normal sexual relations with a member of the opposite sex (or even an adult member of the same sex).
Why are you so afraid of Masonry? But don't worry, we won't invite you to join.(1) I am hardly afraid of Masonry, any more than I am afraid of Buddhism. However, I do not regard either as compatible with being a Catholic. (2) I have had my opportunities to join, and would have no problem doing so if that was what I wanted. It isn’t.
(3) You still refuse to address the issues. You refuse to provide any support for your claims. After previously trying to change the subject from your Church’s non-Christian oaths, and Rites (not to mention its secrecy) to issues like pedophilia, you now attempt to change the subject to my supposed fears.
It is a pathetic group indeed that cannot defend its practices, but must resort to attacking others instead of explaining and supporting its doctrine.
Well, OK. I thought the Masons were open now. You are saying that you, as a 32nd degree Mason, can’t even get the Rite for the 33rd degree? So much for openness.What is the ritual for becoming a 33rd degree Mason, for example?I wouldn't know. I am only a 32nd degree. The 33rd degree is reserved for those who have exhbitited great service to the order.
Where did Christ ever say, go into the world and make it Catholic?Changing the subject yet again? All that chatter, and yet to post a single rite, or any support for your claims.
You have no idea of what you speak.Well, see, you could cure that by posting the actual Rites used. But you refuse, you keep changing the subject.
And would you please address the issue of child molesting priests.No. There have been a 1000 threads on that issue, and I have addressed it there. This thread is about your church, much to your dismay. Do you care to defend your faith, or is that impossible?
If you would allow priests to marry as the first priests and popes were, you might not have such a big problem in the Catholic church as you do today. You might consider tackling that problem and not worry about the Masons so much.LOL. You really can’t defend Masonry at all can you?
And you are a 32nd degree Mason? You guys are in trouble, if this is the best defense you have.
I hate to bust your bubble here, but there in fact no real great big secrets in the Masonic lodge.Then post the Rites. Oh wait, you’re a 32nd degree mason but don’t know the Rite for the 33rd? Isn’t that a secret then?
Unlike our Catholic friends, Masons don't worship statues or icons of any sort.Ah yes, more bigotry. All I ask you to do is post your Rites to defend you faith. I don’t accuse you of a single thing. Yet, you keep ranting about us and making stuff up. Catholics don’t worship statues, as anyone with any sense knows. Your efforts to change the subject know no bounds.
The funny thing is, if you were correct about this, then you would have proven that Catholicism and Masonry are incompatible, for if your claim is true that "Unlike our Catholic friends, Masons don't worship statues or icons of any sort" then you would have made it entirely clear that one faith had elements that simply couldn't be joined by members of the other. Fortunately for your larger arguement, you are wrong.
patent
I was in a fraternity in college, but I was largely a fallen away Catholic at that point. We had numerous Catholics, but they were all like me, fallen away.As a Catholic, I believe it is incompatible with my Christian witness to take secret oaths of any kind.I'm genuinely curious...this is not intended as a slam or to be provocative, or anything like that...what is the Catholic Churches position on College Fraternities and Sororities?My frat had a secret oath, as I assume all other college frats do, and we had many, many Catholics as members.
If the “Catholics” in your fraternity are as “Catholic” as I was they probably don’t care much for what the Church says anyway. Do they attend Mass, do they avoid premarital sex, contraception, etc.?
However, I suspect the Church does not have a global position on fraternities. It would teach that drunken bashes are immoral, and that the oaths some of them take are immoral. However, not all fraternities do these things, so to simply say fraternities are bad would be simplistic.
patent +AMDG
Here's a bit from the 32nd and 33rd degree oaths:
"Masonry will eventually rule the world."
"and prayers are recited for the universal dominion of the true principles of Masonry."
Both quotes from "Christianity and Freemasonry" by William Whalen, page 79.
I advise anyone in the Masons to get out, I pray for them to leave the Masons because it is a religion, contrary to that of Christianity.
Well, I suggest you stay the heck away from it until they stop being so secretive, and until you can actually compare the whole organization to your faith to determine if it is compatible. It isn’t enough to compare the 3rd degree masons, you need to know about the whole picture.Anti-Masonic posts usually run from, the "I have a relative who is a Mason", or I read some book on Masonry which says that this about Masonry....."So, as a woman who is skeptical about Freemasonry, how do you suggest I find out more about it (good or bad) without reading books or talking to friends and relatives?
IMHO, I would stay skeptical, and stay away.
All the information I've found from the Freemasons themselves is very vague and recommends talking to someone from The Fraternity to get more information. Yet members of The Fraternity are reluctant, and some even say prohibited, from speaking with me about The Craft.This refusal to be clear should, in turn, make it crystal clear that you should stay away.
[from Cap'n Crunch]Perhaps patent has a few more..and I post with all due respect to him.I do encourage her to read the books, and yours are fine, but quite frankly it seems entirely unnecessary to me. In and of itself, the mere fact that they won’t talk about their Craft in clear terms is entirely sufficient to tell one that one should avoid them like the plague.
The truth loves light. Lies love the darkness. This very thread is all I think you need to know, to know enough to avoid them. Look at how they run from describing their rituals. If they had the truth, they would shout it from the mountaintops. Read the books, it is always good to know more about them, but I think the truth is already apparent, just on this thread.
patent +AMDG
Lets just leave it at this, and you can take your parting shot at me if you like, but quite honestly I don't give much of a rats ass what you believe or who you are afraid of, or wether I have provided enought proof to you, or wether the Catholic church is the answer or not, or any other bullshit.
For quite honestly: I'm sorry, but I can't go on. You are the definition of stupidity. After this, you will not hear from me again. I have neither the time nor the desire left to deride your ignorant and half baked comments.
I wish you the best of luck in the emotional, and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you.
Freemasonry came here in the 1730s (Boston was the first Lodge) and was given a big boost during the French and Indian War when many British Army divisions had "Field Lodges" which spread the craft to colonials. Washington and essentially all of his generals were Masons; he took the Oath of Office on April 30, 1789 in NYC and placed his hand on a Masonic Bible (which is still used for this function). Many of the Signers were Masons. The Masons were (and remain) a force for good.
I am not a Mason; my interest in them stemmed from my main hobby: General Washington and the RevWar.
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