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Lincoln statue unveiled
Richmond Times Dispatch ^ | 4/6/03 | Jeremy Redmon and Lindsay Kastner

Posted on 04/06/2003 5:26:16 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur

Edited on 07/20/2004 11:48:37 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Richmond welcomed Abraham Lincoln back with patriotic music, enthusiastic applause and boos yesterday, 138 years after he entered the smoldering capital of the Confederacy.

Smiling children and dignitaries slowly lifted a forest green cloth, unveiling a life-size bronze statue of Lincoln and his son, Tad, at a spot near the James River.


(Excerpt) Read more at timesdispatch.com ...


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To: GOPcapitalist
It's the northern section where all the leftist bureaucrats are infiltrating.

I know. We can't keep 'em out. I think you might have a bit of different view if you had lived in Southside or in Southwest Virginia where I grew up.

I don't really mean to argue whether Texas or Virginia is more conservative. As long as both are, that's all right by me.

141 posted on 04/07/2003 9:47:36 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (Official FR Meteorologist)
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To: Non-Sequitur
War is hell. Next time think twice before you shoot up the fort.

In other words, your same tired old excuse: "We bear no responsibility for anything - the South made us do it."

142 posted on 04/07/2003 9:52:20 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
In other words, your same tired old excuse: "We bear no responsibility for anything - the South made us do it."

Pretty much, yeah.

143 posted on 04/07/2003 9:58:48 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
Pretty much, yeah.

At least you admit it. That is about all I can hope for from you.

144 posted on 04/07/2003 10:05:25 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
Which is different from your "It's all Lincoln's fault" arguement how?
145 posted on 04/07/2003 10:12:05 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Corin Stormhands
Shut up Wlat.

Rant on, Corin.

Walt

146 posted on 04/07/2003 10:12:38 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Which is different from your "It's all Lincoln's fault" arguement how?

I don't believe I have ever said that it is all Lincoln's fault - only that the laws of causality indicate that Lincoln's actions and decisions were the most immediate cause that brought about the war.

147 posted on 04/07/2003 10:22:37 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
I don't believe I have ever said that it is all Lincoln's fault - only that the laws of causality indicate that Lincoln's actions and decisions were the most immediate cause that brought about the war.

Of course it was.

148 posted on 04/07/2003 10:31:02 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: WhiskeyPapa; Admin Moderator

Let's refresh your memory, if we can. To quote an 'unimpeachable source':


To: Godebert

You're a leftist troll who by your own admission voted for Al Gore.

I'd vote for Gore again over Bush jr. It was a no-brainer that if Junior was elected, we'd have Senior running things, and I bet he is. Surely no one thinks that Junior has enough brains to get all this rolling. Cheney and Powell are going to run the war -- to clean up the mess they made 12 years ago.

You need to address what I say about the American Civil War.

But you can't.

Walt

19 posted on 03/18/2003 5:49 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/866612/posts?page=19#19



149 posted on 04/07/2003 11:17:31 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Read some more

Maybe you should follow your own advice.

I said earlier on this thread that I'm not big on counter-factual analysis. I cannot say the a statement like "Lincoln might have been their greatest ally in reconstruction," is wrong. (Don't some Israelis think that Yasser Arafat is their best hope for peace?) The point I made was about the destruction of the Jefferson/Madison system of government that did occur. Lincoln started it, at least. Then later the thread moved to questions about Lincoln's character, and I provided some history. These are facts, not discussions about what might have been. Maybe you should start another thread?

ML/NJ

150 posted on 04/07/2003 11:22:09 AM PDT by ml/nj
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To: Cultural Jihad
You're right. Thanks for the correction. It has occured to me that we need to fight this war, and Gore wouldn't do it.

I still think Bush Jr. is just a figure head.

You never hear a word about Bush Sr. Does he not get out much any more or what? He's keeping a low profile because he is heavily involved in the decision making process. That's what I think.

Walt

151 posted on 04/07/2003 11:23:29 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Do you remember voting for Al Gore in the year 2000 A.D. as you had previously claimed? Or is your recollection of that event all a blur to you, too?
152 posted on 04/07/2003 11:28:37 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: WhiskeyPapa
You never hear a word about Bush Sr.

Because he's doing what former Presidents are supposed to do, and have done for the last 200 years --- keep their mouths shut in public. It's a damn shame that the Rats from Georgia and Arkansas don't follow that tradition.

153 posted on 04/07/2003 11:28:51 AM PDT by Ditto (You are free to form your own opinions, but not your own facts.)
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To: ml/nj
The point I made was about the destruction of the Jefferson/Madison system of government that did occur.

That did not happen.

Madison absolutely was for a primacy of the federal government over the states and so was Jefferson.

It fell to Lincoln to put the fabric that they created to the test.

The power was always there.

Besides the text of the Constitution, look at two laws that the Congress very early on passed:

From the Militia Act of 1792:

"And it be further enacted, That whenever the laws of the United States shall be opposed or the execution thereof obstructed, in any state, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the marshals by this act, it shall be lawful for the President of the United States to call forth the militia of such state to suppress such combinations, and to cause the laws to be duly executed. And if the militia of a state, where such combinations may happen, shall refuse, or be insufficient to suppress the same, it shall be lawful for the President, if the legislatures of the United States be not in session, to call forth and employ such numbers of the militia of any other state or states most convenient thereto, as may be necessary, and the use of militia, so to be called forth, may be continued, if necessary, until the expiration of thirty days after the commencement of the ensuing session."

From the Judiciary Act of 1789:

"And be it further enacted, That the Supreme Court shall have exclusive jurisdiction of all controversies of a civil nature, where a state is a party, except between a state and its citizens; and except also between a state and citizens of other states, or aliens, in which latter case it shall have original but not exclusive jurisdiction."

The people in the 1790's were bent on establishing a national edifice. And as we can see by the events in the ACW era, they succeeded.

Walt

154 posted on 04/07/2003 11:30:49 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: Cultural Jihad
Do you remember voting for Al Gore in the year 2000 A.D.

I do indeed. I couldn't believe I had to fill out a paper ballot. When I lived in Nashville ten years ago we always had electronic ballots.

Georgia is basically an extension of South Carolina in most ways.

Walt

155 posted on 04/07/2003 11:37:01 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: ml/nj
The point I made was about the destruction of the Jefferson/Madison system of government that did occur. Lincoln started it, at least.

Funny. I thought it was the Calhoon followers in Charleston who "started it" months before Lincoln ever took office. Or maybe you could tell us how unilateral secession over losing a Presidential election wasn't about destroying the "Jefferson/Madison" system of government?

156 posted on 04/07/2003 11:39:24 AM PDT by Ditto (You are free to form your own opinions, but not your own facts.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
"Do you remember gassing the Jews in Auschwitz?"

"I do indeed. The color of the brick ovens was a rusty orange color, and you don't see bricks like that elsewhere."

157 posted on 04/07/2003 11:39:53 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: ml/nj
Then later the thread moved to questions about Lincoln's character, and I provided some history.

Let's flesh it out a bit:

David Herbert Donald in Lincoln describes the scene on April 4, 1865, when President Lincoln went to visit the former Confederate capital, Richmond. Landing without fanfare from a barge on the James River, he was first noticed by some black workmen, undoubtedly freed slaves. Donald notes that:

Their leader, a man about sixty, dropped his spade and rushed forward, exclaiming, "Bless the Lord, there is the great Messiah! . . . Glory, Hallelujah!" He and others fell on their knees, trying to kiss the President’s feet. "Don’t kneel to me," Lincoln told them, embarrassed. "That is not right. You must kneel to God only, and thank him for the liberty you will hereafter enjoy." Quickly word of the President’s arrival spread, and he was soon surrounded by throngs of blacks, who shouted, "Bless the Lord, Father Abraham come."

http://www.whitehousehistory.org/02_learning/subs_9/activities_9/frame_act_903e.html

"If A can prove, however conclusively, that he may, of right, enslave B. -- why not B. snatch the same argument, and prove equally, that he may enslave A.?

-- You say A. is a white, and B. is black. It is --color--, then; the lighter, having the right to enslave the darker? Take care. By this rule, you are to be the slave to the first man you meet, with a fairer skin than your own.

You do not mean color exactly? -- You mean the whites are --intellectually-- the superiors of the blacks, and therefore, have the right to enslave them? Take care again. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with an intellect superior to your own.

But, say you, it is a question of --interest--; and, if you can make it your --interest--, you have the right to enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it his interest, he has the right to enslave you."

1854

My friends, I have detained you about as long as I desired to do, and I have only to say, let us discard all this quibbling about this man and the other man; this race and that race and the other race being inferior, and therefore they must be placed in an inferior position; discarding our standard that we have left us. Let us discard all these things, and unite as one people throughout this land, until we shall once more stand up declaring that all men are created equal."

A. Lincoln, 7/10/58

"I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which in my judgment will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong, having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. [Loud cheers.] I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects---certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man."

August, 1858

"I do not expect the Union to be dissolved--I do not expect the house to fall--But I do expect it will cease to be divided. Either the opponents of slavery, will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is the course of ultimate extinctioon; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new--North as well as South. Have we no tendency towards the latter condition?"

1858

"The principles of Jefferson are the definitions and axioms of free society. And yet they are denied, and evaded, with no small show of success. One dashingly calls them "glittering generalities"; another bluntly calls them "self evident lies"; and still others insidiously argue that they only apply to "superior races."

These expressions, differing in form, are identical in object and effect. -- the supplanting the principles of free government, and restoring those of classification, caste, and legitimacy. They would delight a convocation of crowned heads, plotting against the people. They are the van-guard -- the miners and sappers -- of returning despotism. We must repulse them, or they will subjugate us. This is a world of compensations; and he that would -be- no slave, must consent to --have-- no slave. Those that deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves, and under a just God cannot long retain it."

3/1/59

"But to be plain, you are dissatisfied with me about the negro. Quite likely there is a difference of opinion between you and myself upon that subject. I certainly wish that all men could be free, while I suppose that you do not. ....peace does not appear as distant as it did. I hope it will come soon, and come to stay; and so come as to worth the keeping in all future time. It will have then been proved that, among free men, there can be no successful appeal from the ballot to the bullet; and that they who take such appeal are sure to lose their case, and pay the cost. And then, there will be some black men, who can remember that, with silent tongue, and clenched teeth, and steady eye, and well-poised bayonet they have helped mankind on to this great consumation; while, I fear, there will be some white ones, unable to forget that, with malignant heart, and deceitful speech, have strove to hinder it. Still let us not be over-sanguine of a speedy final triumph. Let us be quite sober. Let us dilligently apply the means, never doubting that a just God, in his own good time, will give us the rightful result."

8/23/63

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel...

In telling this tale I attempt no compliment to my own sagacity. I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me. Now, at the end of three years struggle the Nation's condition is not what either party, or any man devised, or expected. God alone can claim it. Whither it is tending seems plain. If God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God."

4/4/64

"it is also unsatisfactory to some that the elective franchise is not given to the colored man. I would myself prefer that it were now conferred on the very intelligent, and on those who serve our cause as soldiers."

4/11/65

158 posted on 04/07/2003 11:42:09 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: Cultural Jihad
Why stop with Gore? Look at all these other things Wlat has said around here. These statements are not representative of a conservative. They are among the things one would expect to find uponinterviewing the audience of a "Free Mumia" protest.

"All these deaths of U.S. citizens --the death of EVERY U.S. citizen killed by Arab terror in the United States, can be laid directly at the feet of George Bush I." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/15/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/786927/posts?page=452#448

"I'll say again that based on what I knew in 1992, I would vote for Bill Clinton ten times out of ten before I would vote for George Bush Sr." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/15/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/786927/posts?q=1&&page=401#420

"As you doubtless know, the separation of powers in that Pact with the Devil we call our Constitution, gives only Congress the right to raise and spend money." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/15/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/786927/posts?page=432#432

"First of all, the AJC [Atlanta Journal-Constitution] is -not- an "ultra-leftist" newspaper, and you know it." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/13/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/784464/posts?page=70#70

"I feel that admiration for Reagan has rightly diminished over time, and rightly so." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/15/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/786927/posts?page=432#432

"I don't retract any of that." - WhiskeyPapa in reference to the liberal statements found above, 11/26/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/796067/posts?page=146#146

"If you non-U.S. citizens are wondering what the electoral college is and what bunch of ninnies thought it up:  The US Constitution was written by rich white men like Washington, Madison, Hamilton, Randolph, and others.   They wrote it for the benefit of rich white men like themselves.  They didn't trust the common man --at all--, hence the college of electors, who didn't (and don't) necessarily have to vote for the candidate that carries their state.  Here in Georgia, I didn't vote for Al Gore.  I voted for nine Democratic Party hacks that promise to vote for Al when the college meets in December.  Yeah, I know its crazy, but it works." - Walt, aka WhiskeyPapa, explaining the electoral college to Europeans, 11/12/00
SOURCE: soc.history.war.world-war-ii newsgroup

"What the Reagan adminstration did was worse than Watergate. But he was a nicer guy than Nixon, so he skated. Also, despite all the Reagan worship, I don't think he ever made a tough decision." - WhiskeyPapa, 3/10/03
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/859649/posts?page=38#38

"I think the Bushes both to incompetent clowns." - WhiskeyPapa, 3/10/03
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/859649/posts?page=38#38

"I'd vote for Gore again over Bush jr. It was a no-brainer that if Junior was elected, we'd have Senior running things, and I bet he is. Surely no one thinks that Junior has enough brains to get all this rolling. Cheney and Powell are going to run the war -- to clean up the mess they made 12 years ago." - WhiskeyPapa, 3/18/03
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/866612/posts?page=19#19

"I did say, and say again, that based on what I knew in 1992 I would vote for Clinton over Bush Sr. ten times out of ten." - WhiskeyPapa, 4/7/03
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/886354/posts?page=119#137

"I do firmly believe that Bush Jr. is nothing but a figurehead. Bush Sr. is running things; he and Cheney and Rumsfeld. I mean, really listen to the president. He sounds like an idiot." - WhiskeyPapa, 4/7/03
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/886354/posts?page=119#137

159 posted on 04/07/2003 12:02:50 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Madison absolutely was for a primacy of the federal government over the states and so was Jefferson.

Your continued demonstration of your ignorance, or willful misrepresentation of history is breathtaking.

Please read:

From The Federalist No. 46 (Madison)

The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.



From the Kentucky Resolutions (Jefferson)

I. Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that by compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes, delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: That to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral party, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party: That the government created by this compact was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself; since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers; but that as in all other cases of compact among parties having no common Judge, each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress.

ML/NJ
160 posted on 04/07/2003 12:18:11 PM PDT by ml/nj
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