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To: js1138; unspun; Alamo-Girl; beckett; cornelis; Dataman; Diamond; Phaedrus; balrog666
js1138, with regard to the problems of artificial intelligence, you think the "tortoise needs to come out of his shell." Well so do I. But what does this really mean -- in operational terms, going forward?

You wrote: "There are a lot of gears and wheels wizzing around in the brain, most of which are now accessible to study. But the computational model is still a mystery, despite being able to see the pieces."

Perhaps the reason the "computational model is still a mystery" is because it can only "see the pieces", never the integrated, systematic whole of which they are "the pieces."

In any event, it seems to me the "pieces" themselves are pretty intangible quantities when you boil it all down. It seems these pieces are what amount to after-the-fact recordings (for we can only "read the tape" after the "take" has been registered) of experimental observations of human brain function. Yet it hardly seems to occur to anyone these days that any trace brain function leaves on any recording device is not the same thing as the thing being recorded. Or to question the possibility that brain function, in a certain sense, is itself the trace of a higher-order function of some kind.

Which for lack of a better descriptor I would call consciousness. This is what Marvin Minsky believes can be supplied to a "thinking machine" as the "short description of the system." Man, talk about taking a short-cut to problem solution! Which could never solve the problem, precisely because it is a short-cut.

IMHO, people who work in the field of artificial intelligence might find it helpful to study, in addition to brain studies, the operations of consciousness. Arguably, consciousness is highly structured and complex. One would think this fact might have some bearing on the content of Minsky's "short description." For how is any "short description" to capture the quality of essential self-reflection inherent in human thinking?

If the AI folks of "strong theory" school continue to avoid exploring the structure of consciousness itself, then I really don't think they will get very far very soon in achieving their goals. To put it bluntly, my suspicion is these folks are seriously on the wrong track -- barking up the wrong tree, methodologically speaking.

At the end of the day, the problem before them -- as they themselves seem to have defined it -- is of such dimension and intractibility as to suggest to an outside observer that it would be easier to turn thinking humans into machines than to turn machines into human-like thinkers.

Believe it or not, there are ways to do systematic investigations into the operations of consciousness. Unfortunately, every last one of them (that I know about anyway), is necessarily "subjective."

As unspun has aptly put it, before there can be "objectivity," there has to be a "subjectivity." And I think that observation directly bears on the seemingly most intractible problem of AI theory.

JMHO FWIW.

185 posted on 03/07/2003 6:22:06 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
I don't think neurons are fully understood. I don't think neurons are the sole operational components of brains. I think all brain operation is accessible for study. I think animal brain function is identical to human brain function except for the obvious increase in complexity made possible by observable differences in size and structure. I don't think much is known about the way the various components function as a whole.

When we fully understand something like a bird or lizard brain I think we will have made some progress towards AI.

186 posted on 03/07/2003 6:33:04 PM PST by js1138
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for your post! I agree with your assessment of Artificial Intelligence and the apparent flaws in related research pertaining to consciousness.

The big unknowns are the secret discoveries briefly described by Freeper tortoise. I understand the need to keep such secrets because AI has great potential for defense systems – but I’m still miserably curious (LOL!)

187 posted on 03/07/2003 8:51:21 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl
Penrose convinces me that "strong AI" can never succeed with its alogrithmic approach due to the limitation discovered by Godel and Walker convinces me that there can be a credible model of brain function in which consciousness plays a crucial role as a stand-alone but wholly intangible entity. Science has gone as far as the Materialistic paradigm will take it (and then some!) and will continue to chase its tail so long as its mind remains closed.
198 posted on 03/08/2003 6:56:11 AM PST by Phaedrus
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