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Anti-Creationists Backed Into a Corner?
AgapePress ^ | February 24, 2003 | Jim Brown

Posted on 02/24/2003 1:25:18 PM PST by Remedy

More than 200 evolutionists have issued a statement aimed at discrediting advocates of intelligent design and belittling school board resolutions that question the validity of Darwinism.

The National Center for Science Education has issued a statement that backs evolution instruction in public schools and pokes fun at those who favor teaching the controversy surrounding Darwinian evolution. According to the statement, "it is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible" for creation science to be introduced into public school science textbooks. [See Earlier Article]

Forrest Turpen, executive director of Christian Educators Association International, says it is obvious the evolution-only advocates feel their ideology and livelihood are being threatened.

"There is a tremendous grouping of individuals whose life and whose thought patterns are based on only an evolutionary point of view," Turpen says, "so to allow criticism of that would be to criticize who they are and what they're about. That's one of the issues."

Turpen says the evolution-only advocates also feel their base of financial rewards is being threatened.

"There's a financial issue here, too," he says. "When you have that kind of an establishment based on those kinds of thought patterns, to show that there may be some scientific evidence -- and there is -- that would refute that, undermines their ability to control the science education and the financial end of it."

Turpen says although evolutionists claim they support a diversity of viewpoints in the classroom, they are quick to stifle any criticism of Darwinism. In Ohio recently, the State Board of Education voted to allow criticism of Darwinism in its tenth-grade science classes.


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To: Buckeye Bomber
I first posted this 2 years ago:

Current list-of-evolution deniers:

01. Total-blankout boys: Those who simply go blank when the evidence is presented, and deny that any of it exists.
02. Conspiracy believers: Those who have heard about Piltdown Man, and who declare that all the evidence is fake (while refusing to admit that there are far more fraudulent clergymen than data-faking scientists).
03. All-or-nothing perfectionists: Those who point to one imprecisely classified fossil, and declare that it's all a confused mess.
04. Gap artists: Those who actually see the evidence, but who point to the inevitable gaps, and claim that until all gaps are closed (an obvious impossibility), they will refuse to accept any of the evidence that lies between the gaps.
05. Road-to-hell rejectionists: Those who see the evidence, but reject it because of an irrational belief that it leads to fascism, socialism, teen pregnancy, the heartbreak of psoriasis, etc.
06. Platonists: Those who can't accept evolution because they insist that there is a mystical dimension to the universe, and fear that evolution is some evil plot to deny this elusive domain of existence.
07. My-cult-is-better-than-your-cult fanatics: Those who insist that that what they call Darwinism is some kind of Satanic cult (revealing that they have no concept of the nature of science).
08. Certainty fetishists: Those who can't stand the way science grows in understanding, and revises its theories to accommodate new data, declaring: "The experts used to say that man is X years old, now they say he's X+Y years old; so they keep changing their minds and don't know anything!"
09. Jehovah's disrupters: Those who imagine that God wants them to spam, insult, act-up, flame, and otherwise disrupt these threads.
10. Battlestar Galactica buffs: Those who insist that aliens in UFOs are a better explanation than evolution.
11. DNA decoders: Those who believe the Deity has written a secret message in our DNA (which, although not yet decoded, provides proof that evolution is false).
12. Undistributed Middle Fallacists: Those who believe that (a) most atheists are Darwinists, therefore (b) disproving Darwin=proof of Christianity. What these folks don't realize is that (1) evolution is compatible with everything but the most hyper-literal fundamentalist reading of the Bible, and (2) even if evolution were disproved and Intelligent Design could be proven, that would not prove the truth of Christianity, as the intelligent designer could be the impersonal God of the Deists -- or Zeus or Vishnu or Ahura Mazda or Moloch.
13. Stealth-ies: Those who deny evolution as ardently as any creationist, and who endlessly demand that evolution be defended, yet who swear "I'm not a creationist," no matter how obvious it is that they are, and who refuse to explain their own beliefs (because they're creationists-in-the-closet).
14. Genesis uber alles: Self-explanatory category, and perhaps the most amazing of all. Flat-earthers in spirit, if not in fact.
15. Just-don't-get-it-gang Those who were intellectually abused as children, and who now demand: "Show me a dog that changes into a goldfish, and maybe then I'll accept evolution."
16. Subjunctive junkies: Those who leap upon standard phrases in scientific papers such as " ... the data would seem to indicate .." and exclaim: "See there! He admits he's just guessing!"
17. Ape Ancestry Revulsionists: "There ain't no ape in my family tree." or "I ain't no kin to no monkey nohow!"

361 posted on 02/25/2003 12:36:56 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: PatrickHenry
You mind if I add this to my profile?
362 posted on 02/25/2003 12:41:38 PM PST by Buckeye Bomber
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To: Buckeye Bomber
An honor. Please feel free.
363 posted on 02/25/2003 12:45:18 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: Servant of the Nine
Science is the study of how things work when there is no supernatural action.

I think the point being made is that evolution is inaccurately being portrayed as a complete and comprehensive explanation as to the diversity of life.

364 posted on 02/25/2003 12:48:01 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: Buckeye Bomber; PatrickHenry
Two classic posts! Thanks, guys.
365 posted on 02/25/2003 1:01:42 PM PST by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: balrog666
The Eliza-f.Christian post on your profile is one of the funniest things I've ever read. I've also stolen that and added it to my hyperlinks, even though I wasn't involved at all.
366 posted on 02/25/2003 1:03:27 PM PST by Buckeye Bomber
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To: Dataman
When you can address my points instead of throwing cheap shots, let me know.

In the meantime, I suggest you continue to let dirtboy do your thinking for you. You have demonstrated the ability to do precious little of your own.
367 posted on 02/25/2003 1:07:21 PM PST by Condorman (Furious activity is no substitute for understanding.)
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To: Dataman
The British humanists say we are. They are worried.

I am sanguine. I take the long view, and these things move in cycles - even if you "win", it won't last. Eventually, intellectually rigorous ID theorists will come to realize that "intellectually rigorous ID theory" is inherently self-contradictory, and then they will flee it faster than Rosie O'Donnell making for a buffet table. And the next time around, your children and grandchildren will find it that much harder to slip supernaturalism into science.

368 posted on 02/25/2003 1:12:30 PM PST by general_re (Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.)
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To: Condorman
I took enough geology in college to know that prospecting has everything to do with probablility and nothing to do with evolution or so-called geologic time.


I have a meeting in 20 minutes so I'll be brief and give a few reasons why the earth is young:

Because the growth of coral reefs has been measured, no coral formaton need be over 3400 years old

The same with stalagmites and stalactites Radiometric contradictions abound, making it unreliable.

The geologic column exists only in text books. If the earth's layers were formed over millions of years, they should be relatively consistent everywhere.

Human artifacts have been found in layers dating back millions of years.

Human footprints dating back 150 million to 600 million years ago have been found in Utah, Kentucky, Missouri, possibly PA and TX.

Radioactive decay of only uranium and thorium would produce all the atmosphere's He in only 40k years. The atmosphere has not yet stabilized.

Lead diffuses from zircon crystals at a known rate. The rate increases with temperature. Greater depths and temps should reveal less pb in the crystals. If the earth were even a fraction of the supposed geologic age, we should be able to measure a difference in the crystals found in the first 2 miles of the earth's crust. Instead, no measurable difference is found between the crystals near the surface and the crystals deep in the hot earth.

Since you claim to be familiar with the oil drilling business, you may know that gas, oil and water are trapped in relatively permeable rock. The pressure disappears somewhere between 10k and 100k years. There is no possible way for the oil to be trapped for 50 million years.I am talking about serious men (often Christian men) who raise their families based on tests which tell them where the oil, gold, copper, uranium might be due to geological movements of millions of years.

Volcanoes belch a cubic mile of debris into the atmosphere each year. If the earth is 4.6 billion years old, about 10x the earth's volume should have been put into the atmosphere and that's at current rates. Evos claim that volcanic activity was higher in the past.

The rate of continental erosion indicates a young earth.

River sediment transport indicates a young earth

The rate of accumulation of minerals and salts in the ocean indicates a young earth.

Meteorite material is found in relatively shallow earth.

Meteoric dust accumulation indicates a young earth.

The rate of decay of the earth's magnetic fields indicates a young earth.

The rate of cooling of the earth indicates a young earth.

The rate of recession of the moon indicates a young earth.

The accumulation of dust on the moon indicates a young moon.

There are many more reasons such as OOP artifacts but I'm late for the meeting.

87 posted on 02/02/2003 3:33 PM PST by Dataman

369 posted on 02/25/2003 1:15:49 PM PST by f.Christian (( + God *IS* Truth + love courage // LIBERTY *logic* *SANITY*Awakening + ))
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To: PatrickHenry
18. Grand Unified Theorists: Those who reject evolution because it provides no explanation for the origin of life, the Big Bang, the origin of matter, wave/particle duality, or the continued success of Sheryl Crow.
370 posted on 02/25/2003 1:26:15 PM PST by Condorman
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To: Remedy
Focus, focus, focus! This just seems to be gibberish. A break down of allel frequencies in comparing higher primates with humans would be more useful in responding to my posts. There is some diffuse reference to abortion or at least the definition of a fetus in this, which is lost as the issue is not abortion. If you are anti-abortion, your position is basically not any different than mine on that particular issue. Please, if you don't have something meaningful to respond to about my posting on Darwin's theory of evolution, don't respond.
371 posted on 02/25/2003 1:43:34 PM PST by miloklancy
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To: BibChr
You said: "Ever ask one 'What would have to change in your life, morally and spiritually, if creationism were true?'"

Morally, nothing. Spiritually, it depends upon what you mean by "creationism." If by creationism you mean that God is perpetually tinkering with the universe, creating life forms here and there, extinguishing other life forms, setting up a new universe to look like an old universe by creating fossil throw-downs, phony decay rates, and a mutable speed of light, then I'd have to say I'd be in a spiritual quandry. If, however, you mean by creationism that God is the first cause and the creator of the first life, then my answer would be nothing.

Now, "What would have to change in your life, morally and spiritually, if evolution were true?"
372 posted on 02/25/2003 1:52:41 PM PST by atlaw
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To: Buckeye Bomber
Hitler was not an evolutionist.

Is there more than one Hitler? Who in their right mind would deny that Hitler was a social darwinist? He compared Jews to Apes in Mein Kampf and compared modern man with ape men in Table Talk.

True, he used religious language to worm his way into power, but his words and deeds were as disconnected as Clinton's.

Skeptics, atheists and other history revisionists like to pretend that Hitler was a Christian and they yank quotes out of the context of reality. Recently- and you probably didn't know it because evolutionists already have the answers for everything so why watch the news- more documentation was discovered that supports my contention:

Can someone help me out here?

It may be too late.

They will consistently call us evil, and that's the way it is.

You may be evil, but show me where I called you evil. Or have your powers of random reasoning concluded that since Hitler was an evolutionist and Hitler was evil you, being an evolutionist are evil as well? If your mind has led you there that is something you'll have to work out with your own conscience.

373 posted on 02/25/2003 1:54:54 PM PST by Dataman
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To: general_re
your children and grandchildren will find it that much harder to slip supernaturalism into science.

The difference between my belief in supernatual events and an evolutionist's belief in supernatural events is only the Cause of those events. Imagination is the source of the evolutionary supernatural events.

Poof! Rocks gave rise to life.
Poof! The universe created itself!
Poof! Dark matter!
Poof! Land whales!
Poof! Bombardier beetles!
Poof! Poof! Poof!

374 posted on 02/25/2003 2:03:14 PM PST by Dataman
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To: Dataman

Was the "ancient lake" that carved out the grand canyon filled sulphuric acid? 'Cause that's about the only thing that could have done it in a few thousand years.

Your naturalist assumptions make sense only if you apply them to a naturalist worldview.

Ah, this brings up a question I've wanted to ask you creationists for some time: Why do you try so hard to twist the facts to fit your dogma? Why not simply assert that God blinked and poofed the Grand Canyon into existence? Why try so hard to relegate the miraculous to the deep, deep background? Why not simply posit the miracles up front?

For example: This was brought home to me as I was reading a Watchtower tract about evolution. (I think it was the one with the Hubble photo on the cover.) At one point it tries to explain how God could have caused the waters to part to let the Israelites flee the Egyptians. Their solution was that God took a giant magnet that was so powerful it even magetized the water molecules in the Red Sea, and did this so forcefully that it pulled the water apart & made the dry channel for them to walk thru.

Now, I gotta ask you: Why would God need to bother with such a complex mechanism to carry out a miracle? Why not simply think about the waters parting? Isn't this, after all, how he supposedly thought the universe into existence? Why the extra baggage of having to bring down (or was it well up from the Earth's mantle?) a giant magnet to pull the water molecules apart? I mean, the obvious question here is how come the Israelites' bodies themselves didn't break apart?

So you, Dataman, having just asserted that believing in miracles makes for better science, please tell me where these miracles should be assumed to have taken place in the chain of causality.

For example, to bring us back to the Grand Canyon: Did God fill this lake with sulphuric acid directly? Or did he place a deposit of sulphur in the ground in such a way that it would get exposed to the Flood waters at the right time & dissolve into it in the right proportions? Or did he not use sulphur at all, but instead caused great big lightning strikes to zap the Grand Canyon into existence? Or did he simply speak "Grand Canyon" and it immediately poofed into existence, like he supposedly is able to do when creating universes?

375 posted on 02/25/2003 2:05:57 PM PST by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: Dataman
Poof! God creates a creationist capable of understanding the theory of evolution.

Well, we can imagine Him doing so, anyway...

376 posted on 02/25/2003 2:07:47 PM PST by general_re (Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.)
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To: jennyp
In a time period (( approx )) the precambrian lower layers represent 2/3rds -- 70 % of the geologic column . . .

they formed from below (( rather quickly ))-- -- -- no fossils .. .. ..

also the post cambrian surface layers would be forming at the same time - - -

the bottom layers of the pre cambrian were forming -- -- -- subtract another billion years !

the very short time for the earth to form a layered surface crust // plate and the temperatures to cool off to support life is obvious .. .. ..

not even debatable ==== water would be boiling -- too hot . . .

and life forms only exist in the top 3rd -- -- -- not enough time for evolution !

How could that mass of material FORM above ground (( dirt // dust clouds ?? )) from the bottom up .. .. ..

common sense would tell you that is impossible --- ridiculous !


377 posted on 02/25/2003 2:10:57 PM PST by f.Christian (( + God *IS* Truth + love courage // LIBERTY *logic* *SANITY*Awakening + ))
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To: Dataman
What's your point in belaboring the tenuous connection between Hitler and evolution other than to imply that people who accept the theory of evolution are as evil as Hitler? You and Dan play this fascinating game of condemnation by innuendo, followed by transparent protestations of innocence. It is unbecoming in a person who professes to be a Christian.
378 posted on 02/25/2003 2:15:04 PM PST by atlaw
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To: atlaw
I've seen every bug eyed evolutionist (( nazi // overlords )) staring off at every canyon -- mountain -- bug .. .. ..

thinking // believing how it all grew out of a washed out mudball === looney !

379 posted on 02/25/2003 2:19:18 PM PST by f.Christian (( + God *IS* Truth + love courage // LIBERTY *logic* *SANITY*Awakening + ))
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To: dirtboy
Maybe you should take this one.
380 posted on 02/25/2003 2:19:18 PM PST by Junior (I want my, I want my, I want my chimpanzees)
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