- Aw, comeon Jesse, we all know you are the pretender here.
Posted on 01/31/2003 12:21:22 PM PST by scripter
Introduction: There are some who quote James 1:5 in a way that pulls it out of its intended context and changes the original intent. That is, if you lack wisdom, ask God. While it's perfectly fine to ask God for wisdom according to the context and orginal intent of the author, James 1:5 is not the verse to claim for general wisdom as it is specific to wisdom in trials. I believe the Bible teaches that when we ask for wisdom, we ask with a selfless heart and that in granting the wisdom God may be glorified. There are limits on why God grants wisdom, such as if asked for selfish reasons. And pulling James 1:5 out of context puts no such limitations on what or how we request wisdom.
In verse 1 James uses the same word Paul used in Romans 1:1 and calls himself a servant of God the Father and God the Son. The word for servant can be defined as:
The first removal occurred when the people of the Northern Kingdom (whose capital was in Samaria) were conquered by the Assyrians and were carried away into captivity in Assyria (2 Kings 17:23 and 1 Chronicles 5:26).
The second removal occurred around 580 B.C. when the Babylonians conquered the Southern Kingdom (whose capital was Jerusalem), and carried the best of the people away to Babylon (2 Kings 24:14-16 and Psalm 137).
The third removal took place around 63 B.C., when Pompey conquered the Jews and took Jerusalem and many Jews were transplanted to Rome as slaves.
Still, far greater numbers of Jews left on their own free will, looking for more comfortable living conditions. Jews moved to Egypt and Syria. Alexander the Great moved 2000 Jewish families to Lydia and Phrygia. Thus, Jews were spread all over the world.
The Greek geographer, Strabo wrote: "It is hard to find a spot in the world which is not occupied and dominated by Jews." The Jewish Historian, Josephus wrote: "There is no city, no tribe, whether Greek or barbarian, in which Jewish law and Jewish customs have not taken root."
James continues with his introduction, saying: "Joy to you." Even though you are scattered among the nations and facing trials of many kinds, do not be robbed of your joy.
Therefore, in verse 1 James wrote:
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations. Joy to you!
James never suggests to his audience that Christianity would be an easy road. In verse 2 we see just that with his use of the word trials. The Greek word for trials means: trials or testing directed towards an end. What is that end? He who is tested should emerge stronger and purer from the testing. The attached verb means strengthening and purifying.
The root word for trials can be used for trials or temptations (internal), with trials an external meaning, such as the adversity his readers are experiencing. With the external meaning, the word is used especially to refer to trials of persecution (1 Peter 4:12).
James says to consider it pure joy, or consider it all joy when we experience trials of many kinds. He doesn't say to be joyous for the trial but in the trial. The verb translated face might more literally be expressed as "fall into," much as the poor man "fell among robbers" (Luke 10:30).
In The Letters of James & Peter,pp 42-43, William Barclay wrote:
All kinds of experiences will come to us. There will be the test of sorrows and the disappointments which seek to take our faith away. There will be the test of the seductions which seek to lure us from the right way. There will be tests of the dangers, the sacrifices, the unpopularity which the Christian way must so often involve. But they are not meant to make us fall; they are meant to make us soar. They are not meant to defeat us; they are meant to be defeated. They are not meant to make us weaker; they are meant to make us stronger. Therefore we should not bemoan them; we should rejoice in them. The Christian is like the athlete. The heavier the course of training he undergoes, the more he is glad, because he knows that it is fitting him all the better for victorious effort.
James uses an interesting word for describing the testing process. It's the word for sterling coinage (genuine unalloyed money). Meeting the testing in the right way will produce much more than patience or perseverance. The word means the ability to turn testing into greatness and to glory.
To summarize verses 1-3 using the expanded Greek words and phrases:
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations. Joy to you! Consider it pure joy when you fall into many trials because you know that the testing of your faith is directed towards an end, which when met in the right way will strengthen and purify you, and turn into greatness and glory.
Something that amazed the heathen during the persecution centuries was that the martyrs didn't die grimly. It's been told that a martyr was smiling in the flames so they asked him at what he was smiling. He responded: "I saw the glory of God and was glad." That's the type of character generated when we meet the trial in the right way, it produces greatness and glory.
Meeting the trial in the right way makes us mature. The Greek word for mature is teleios and means perfection for a given end. A sacrificial animal is teleios if it is fit to offer to God. A scholar is teleious if he is mature. A person is teleios if he is full grown.
Meeting the trial in the right way makes us complete. The word means perfect in every part. In meeting the trial in the right way we eventually remove weaknesses and imperfections.
Meeting the trial in the right way makes us lacking nothing. The word means deficient in nothing and has been used in the following ways: the defeat of an army, the giving up of a struggle and the failure to reach a standard that should have been reached.
Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure so valuable that a man would sell everything he owns to obtain it and would do so "in his joy" (Matt 13:44). Paul said we "rejoice in our sufferings" because "suffering produces perseverance" (Romans 5:3). Peter said Christians should "greatly rejoice" in "all kinds of trials" (1 Peter 1:6). Perseverence isn't the end result, it's the lifestyle by which the Christian attains maturity.
To summarize verses 1-4 using the expanded Greek words and phrases:
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations. Joy to you! Consider it pure joy when you fall into many trials because you know that the testing of your faith is directed towards an end, which when met in the right way will strengthen and purify you, and turn into greatness and glory. The ability to turn testing into greatness and glory must finish its work so that you may be perfect for a given end, with weaknesses and imperfections gone, deficient in nothing.
During the trial, if you're deficient in the wisdom to meet the trial in the right way, ask God. James speaks of the period of testing before perseverance has completed its work. During such testing, if anyone lacks or is deficient in wisdom to meet the trial in the right way, he may have it by asking.
Wisdom is not just acquired information but practical insight with spiritual implications (Prov 1:2-4; 2:10-15; 4:5-9; 9:10-12). With James' Jewish background, wisdom is a practical thing. It isn't philosophic speculation or intellectual knowledge, to James wisdom is concerned with the business of living. Wisdom is "knowledge of the things human and divine" as defined by the Stoics.
According to The Expositors Bible Commentary, volume 12, pp. 168-169:
The type of Greek conditional sentence found here assumes that people facing trials do lack wisdom. What they need is not the speculative or theoretical wisdom of a philosophical system. It is the kinds of wisdom that we read about in Proverbs (passages listed above). It is the God-given understanding that enables a person to avoid the paths of wickedness and to live a life of righteousness. In this context wisdom is understanding the nature and purpose of trials and knowing how to meet them victoriously.
James lists two examples to illustrate the spiritual dynamics of trials. The first example: lacking wisdom (5-8), the second: lacking money (9-12).
Wisdom is a perfect first example because it is so important for Christians in trials. A cry from the heart of a Christian during trials might be "What do I do?" Look at 2 Chronicles 20:12 for a great example of a need for wisdom in trials.
We can ask God for the needed wisdom without fear, for God gives without holding our failures or lack of wisdom against us. Fortunately God doesn't respond by reminding us of our faults!
To summarize James 1:1-5 using the expanded Greek meaning of the words:
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations. Joy to you! Consider it pure joy when you fall into many trials because you know that the testing of your faith is directed towards an end, which when met in the right way will strengthen and purify you, and turn into greatness and glory. The ability to turn testing into greatness and glory must finish its work so that you may be perfect for a given end, with weaknesses and imperfections gone, deficient in nothing. If any of you while enduring a trial are deficient in wisdom to meet the trial in the right way, continue to ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
The context tells us it's meeting the trial in the right way that makes Christians mature. If we lack the wisdom to do this, ask God. The context tells us:
The Greek sentence structure also tells us those falling into trials do indeed lack wisdom, again making the wisdom here specific to trials. Claiming this verse for anything other than wisdom to endure trials changes the original meaning, and understanding the original intent is required to have correct theology, no matter what the subject of study.
If you encounter a trial and don't have the wisdom for meeting the trial in the right way, ask God for help and don't doubt at all. The only barrier that exists is our faith. We shouldn't be afraid to ask God because of our lack of wisdom. James says he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown [horizontally] and tossed [vertically] by the wind. The image of being driven on the sea was common in Greek literature and occurs in Jewish wisdom texts, Isaiah 57:20, Ephesians 4:14 and the apocryphal Ecclesiasticus 33:2.
Jewish wisdom texts also condemn the double-minded or double-tongued person as does Psalm 12:2. Philosophers and Jewish sages abhorred the hypocrisy of saying one thing and living another, and speaking or living inconsistently.
James tells us not to be double-minded when we ask for wisdom. See James 4:8 as well. A double-minded man is a man with two souls or two minds inside him. One believes he'll receive wisdom and the other disbelieves.
When quoting Scripture we must be careful to quote in context. When requesting wisdom, God has given us the following verses and when used in context, are perfect for requesting wisdom.
If you want to properly claim Scripture it must be done in context, otherwise you can use Scripture to support just about anything.
If a Christian is going through trials they have James 1:5 as supporting Scripture when asking for wisdom to endure. The wisdom given in James 1:5 is specific to trials.
If a Christian desires wisdom for selfless reasons such as King Solomon requested to lead God's people, claim 1 Kings 3:5-14 (repeated in 2 Chronicles) in prayer.
The Matthew and Luke passages are in regards to selfless prayer. If a Christian asks for wisdom to advance the cause of Christ, to glorify God, or to further God's kingdom, Matthew and Luke are prime examples to use.
We must understand the original intent of the writer and the context to properly claim a verse in prayer.
General Bibliography
George M. Stulac, The IVP New Testament Commentary Series, James, IVP
Frank E. Gaebelein, The Expositors Bible Commentary, Volume 12, Zondervan
William Barclay, The Letters of James and Peter, Westminster Press
Walvoord & Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, Victor Books
The Harper Collins Study Bible, NRSV, with Apocryphal books, Harper Collins
The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan
Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary, New Testament, IVP
Seriously, was Elizabeth old enough to have the sacred undergarments?
Perhaps the protection provided by them has kept her safe.
My point is that it's not a point I consider valid. I can line up similar commentaries that agree with my view.
That's just an immeasurable. Don't say you can, do it. And I'd like to see their credentials.
I read it in context, online at http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol45/htm/vi.ii.ii.htm (a link YOU provided BTW)
You're reading a translation of Calvin who quotes Bible verses in Latin. It looks close to and probably is the Vulgate. Of course I know I provided that link but you want to pick and choose what you pull from it, demonstrating yet again that you don't understand the concept of context.
I previously wrote:
What he says next is key: "I refer the word wisdom to the context" so he doesn't read it the same way you do."
Keep reading..I'll give the whole next paragraph:
'Though in this place to be wise is to submit to God in the endurance of evils, under a due conviction that he so orders all things as to promote our salvation; yet the sentence may be generally applied to every branch of right knowledge.'
So, like myself, he says that the context is trials, but the sentance (v5) 'may be generally applied to every branch of right knowledge.' Face it. Calvin and I are in very close agreement. Let's not have a 'John Calvin, Commentaries on the Catholic Epistles, trans. John Owen [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, n.d.], 282 in context' thread. :)
We're both reading translations of Calvin here. Mine is worded differently from the web link but the reference to wisdom in verse 5 is very close. The web link says:
For wisdom here, I confine to the subject of the passageMy book Calvin's New Testament Commentary translated by A.W. Morrison on page 263 says:
I refer the word wisdom exactly to the contextI left out the word exactly from my book in my last post. Both translations state the wisdom is confined or is tied to the context. What you want to do is take that and say it's a general case, which you simply cannot do here without changing the intent of the author.
Also, my translation doesn't say "yet the sentence may be generally applied to every branch of right knowledge", rather it says:
the idea can be applied in general to the whole range of right understanding.And from the context we can see it's the idea of asking God for wisdom in a general case from Matt 7:7 and Luke 11:9, not James 1:5. So no, Calvin doesn't agree with you.
Not a dodge at all, you wanted my comment on it, you got it. His comment at the start of v5 is an interpretative comment, he is interpreting HOW the context applies. It makes no difference to me what kind of interpretative comment it is, it is an interpretative comment.
In other words, you're going to continually dodge the question because it rips out the sand foundation on which you've built your position.
I did not say my reasons for leaning to disagree with Wuest were based in the Greek. YOU said in post #14 "There are very specific reasons for my position, which are based on taking a deep look at the Greek words and sentence structure." so YOU go ahead and demonstrate how my position conflicts with the Greek text if you can.
I'm sorry, from what I can see that's just not possible. Perhaps you can make your own point.
I said that the Greek text alone doesn't rule out EITHER of our positions. If you want to dispute that, just show how my position is incompatable with the Greek text.
I have made my point very clearly but you refuse to comment on it, dodging the most critical questions in this regard.
Well, at least you admit your bias.
And I have very good reason for my position. I've seen what they've put out and it can't even stand up with props.
What difference does that make to you when they accept LDS theology? When Calvin agrees with me you write him off too. You measure schoolarship according to how well they agree with your position.
I didn't ask if they accept LDS theology. I asked "What are their credentials."
My point is that even among scholars the matter is not settled.
What scholars? What are their credentials?
I previously said:
Verse 5 starts out with And if, as is the case and we see that is referring to the previous verses, which are talking about trials and patience.
Trials given so we can become perfect and complete, lacking nothing( you keep skipping over that part of v4). And if, as is the case, we lack wisdom
Please. I'm not skipping over anything. I'm reading everything in context and not pulling any one phrase out of context. As stated in post #1:
James uses an interesting word for describing the testing process. It's the word for sterling coinage (genuine unalloyed money). Meeting the testing in the right way will produce much more than patience or perseverance. The word means the ability to turn testing into greatness and to glory.According to the context, and Calvin no matter what translation you use, the wisdom to meet the testing in the right way is referring to the context. Any other usage is changing the authors intent.
I previously wrote:
But you somehow think that sticking to the context of James 2-12 somehow contradicts other parts of the Bible."If you say that the intent of v5 is trials AND TRIALS ALONE, then you are saying James is teaching that you CAN'T get any other kind of wisdom for any other reason, which DOES contradict other parts of the Bible that you yourself have pointed out. If James didn't mean that you can't get any other kind of wisdom for any other reason, then his intent is not trials and trials alone.
Actually no, I'm not saying that at all. You just don't understand the concept of context.
Context is not the issue, author intent is. We agree what the text says, we agree what the context is, but we derive the authour's intent by different methods so we disagree on what his intent was.
I look at the Greek and read the passage in context to find the intent. How do you derive the authors intent?
I then use v5 in a way that from my POV is NOT altering the intent of the author, but because you see the intent differently, you consider my use to be a violation of the author's intent, hence out of context from your POV.
I believe in absolutes and not some wishy-washy subjective method of determining intent.
I think both of us have made our positions and reasons for those positions very clear. I doubt there is anything further to gain in this debate. Endlessly repeating ourselves to eachother is of no interest to me. Shall we make FR history by agreeing to disagree and move on?
That wouldn't make FR history.
I have demonstrated the context is trials and how each verse is connected to each other. You want to pull it out of the context and use is as a general case but you have not demonstrated from the Greek in any way whatsoever that James 1:5 is a general case. Please do so.
Why do you say verse 5 is only related to verse 4 when verse 4 is a continuation of verses 2 and 3?
And again (I think this is the fourth time) you ignored my question regarding verse 5:
Wuest has it as And if, as is the case. To understand the intent we need to look and see to what the Greek is connecting. To what is this referring?
If you can't make your case from the Greek then say so.
I'm sorry, from what I can see that's just not possible.That should have probably said something like:
I'm sorry, I just can't see the possibility of that happening.I'll try to type slower next time.
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