[Condorman]

I need to know if you accept these two things as fact. 1.) That the universe exists, and 2.) that it has design in it.

I think you're getting ahead of the debate. First we need to define our terms. Like "design," for example.

Answer me this: What characteristics would a designed universe exhibit that would allow one to distinguish it from an undesigned universe?

[Alamo-Girl]

What characteristics would a designed universe exhibit that would allow one to distinguish it from an undesigned universe?

If you are serious, you might want to look at post 2187

[Fester Chugabrew]

"First we need to define our terms. Like "design," for example.

"Answer me this: What characteristics would a designed universe exhibit that would allow one to distinguish it from an undesigned universe?

This is a great starting point, and you are not at all unreasonable by insisting that we agree on even such a basic concept at this. Here's Merriam Webster's in cut and paste mode:

DESIGN: to create, fashion, execute, or construct according to plan : DEVISE, CONTRIVE 2 a : to conceive and plan out in the mind b : to have as a purpose : INTEND c : to devise for a specific function or end 3 archaic : to indicate with a distinctive mark, sign, or name 4 a : to make a drawing, pattern, or sketch of b : to draw the plans for intransitive senses 1 : to conceive or execute a plan 2 : to draw, lay out, or prepare a design

I note with interest that this definition does not make use of the word "design" as an abstract noun. That is to say, it does not cover the word in such a way as to apply it as a characteristic. Do you think we could agree to the following syllogism:

"Eli Whitney designed the Cotton Gin, therefore the Cotton Gin has design."

I need to know if you think I am making improper use of the word design in the syllogism above. We'll take that step, and then figure out where to go from there, including a list of characteristics I think would be evidence of design. Okay?

Thanks.