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Evolution Disclaimer Supported
The Advocate (Baton Rouge) ^ | 12/11/02 | WILL SENTELL

Posted on 12/11/2002 6:28:08 AM PST by A2J

By WILL SENTELL

wsentell@theadvocate.com

Capitol news bureau

High school biology textbooks would include a disclaimer that evolution is only a theory under a change approved Tuesday by a committee of the state's top school board.

If the disclaimer wins final approval, it would apparently make Louisiana just the second state in the nation with such a provision. The other is Alabama, which is the model for the disclaimer backers want in Louisiana.

Alabama approved its policy six or seven years ago after extensive controversy that included questions over the religious overtones of the issue.

The change approved Tuesday requires Louisiana education officials to check on details for getting publishers to add the disclaimer to biology textbooks.

It won approval in the board's Student and School Standards/ Instruction Committee after a sometimes contentious session.

"I don't believe I evolved from some primate," said Jim Stafford, a board member from Monroe. Stafford said evolution should be offered as a theory, not fact.

Whether the proposal will win approval by the full state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education on Thursday is unclear.

Paul Pastorek of New Orleans, president of the board, said he will oppose the addition.

"I am not prepared to go back to the Dark Ages," Pastorek said.

"I don't think state boards should dictate editorial content of school textbooks," he said. "We shouldn't be involved with that."

Donna Contois of Metairie, chairwoman of the committee that approved the change, said afterward she could not say whether it will win approval by the full board.

The disclaimer under consideration says the theory of evolution "still leaves many unanswered questions about the origin of life.

"Study hard and keep an open mind," it says. "Someday you may contribute to the theories of how living things appeared on earth."

Backers say the addition would be inserted in the front of biology textbooks used by students in grades 9-12, possibly next fall.

The issue surfaced when a committee of the board prepared to approve dozens of textbooks used by both public and nonpublic schools. The list was recommended by a separate panel that reviews textbooks every seven years.

A handful of citizens, one armed with a copy of Charles Darwin's "Origin of the Species," complained that biology textbooks used now are one-sided in promoting evolution uncritically and are riddled with factual errors.

"If we give them all the facts to make up their mind, we have educated them," Darrell White of Baton Rouge said of students. "Otherwise we have indoctrinated them."

Darwin wrote that individuals with certain characteristics enjoy an edge over their peers and life forms developed gradually millions of years ago.

Backers bristled at suggestions that they favor the teaching of creationism, which says that life began about 6,000 years ago in a process described in the Bible's Book of Genesis.

White said he is the father of seven children, including a 10th-grader at a public high school in Baton Rouge.

He said he reviewed 21 science textbooks for use by middle and high school students. White called Darwin's book "racist and sexist" and said students are entitled to know more about controversy that swirls around the theory.

"If nothing else, put a disclaimer in the front of the textbooks," White said.

John Oller Jr., a professor at the University of Louisiana-Lafayette, also criticized the accuracy of science textbooks under review. Oller said he was appearing on behalf of the Louisiana Family Forum, a Christian lobbying group.

Oller said the state should force publishers to offer alternatives, correct mistakes in textbooks and fill in gaps in science teachings. "We are talking about major falsehoods that should be addressed," he said.

Linda Johnson of Plaquemine, a member of the board, said she supports the change. Johnson said the new message of evolution "will encourage students to go after the facts."


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evolution; rades
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To: All
Today's (and yesterday's) unanswered question to the creationoids: HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?
1,161 posted on 12/28/2002 9:29:32 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: gore3000; Sentis
Gore,

I am taking a geology class and I have a test on Monday which asks the question, how old is the earth? There has been no mention of any religions in this class, just this simple basic question: HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?

Funny, isn't it, that you claim Sentis (and me in the past) bring up religion when the debate is supposed to be on scientific grounds. Then you go on to mention how us "materialists" deny the 10 commandments or whatever.

Sentis, I'd like to thank you for at last finding a simple 5 word question which seems shut Gore up. HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?
1,162 posted on 12/28/2002 9:33:28 AM PST by whattajoke
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To: B. Rabbit
HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?

You guys are cracking me up! Do you even realize that this question is still being hotly debated around the World by people a lot smarter than any of us? Furthermore, the answer may not be what you think. I am sure you fellas (if you're women I apologize) are "old-earthers." What would you say if I told you that there is increasing evidence supporting a young Earth? Also, have you read any of Alamo-Girl's stuff? There are a lot of interesting theories out there. Have you guys/gals heard of the RATE project? Check it out: Decay

If you have questions go ahead and post 'em. I have read a lot of the rebuttals to the hypothesis and most of them have been slammed pretty good already by Dr. Humphreys.

Cheers! MM

1,163 posted on 12/28/2002 9:37:04 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Do you even realize that this question is still being hotly debated around the World by people a lot smarter than any of us? Furthermore, the answer may not be what you think.

Although I am sure that this is still hotly debated, only the scientists that are arguing for an earth older than 10,000 years will I admit to being "smarter than any of us". Anybody who is arguing a younger earth is not. I will check out your links though.

Not to keep the pressure on, but gore3000, if you are reading this, HOW OLD IS THE EARTH? Don't mind my previous paragraph.

1,164 posted on 12/28/2002 9:44:08 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: All
In the past, whenever one of the dedicated creationists gets into trouble in a thread, the principle way of handling it is to provoke a flame war, complain to the moderators, and then get the thread pulled. Thus their problem vanishes down the memory hole, and the next thread becomes a whole new opportunity for the same old arguments. So don't be surprised if you start seeing some aggressively provocative comments from the creationist side of this debate.
/signed/ One who has seen it all before.
1,165 posted on 12/28/2002 9:44:35 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
Provoke a flame war by challenging you guys and your theory? If that's all it takes for evolutionists to take the defensive and turn the discussion into a war of words, rather than a serious discussion of science, then you have just summarized why parents across the country want disclamers in the textbooks. *shaking head*

MM

1,166 posted on 12/28/2002 9:49:05 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
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To: B. Rabbit
only the scientists that are arguing for an earth older than 10,000 years will I admit to being "smarter than any of us". Anybody who is arguing a younger earth is not.

Quite the proclamation without even bothering to read the article.

Chalk up another reaszon for slappin' that disclaimer tag on the school books.

1,167 posted on 12/28/2002 9:51:30 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Oh yeah. I checked out your link. Funny how every time there is a scientific breakthrough on creationist thinking it is done by the Creationist Research Society and it misses all major science periodicals... Very peculiar.
1,168 posted on 12/28/2002 10:00:10 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: B. Rabbit; All
Here's some more stuff supporting a young-Earth model. It's in slideshow format for those of us that like pretty pictures. I find it fascinating. Slideshow
1,169 posted on 12/28/2002 10:21:23 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
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To: Sentis
The entire debate hinges on this question

No it does not. Regarding the man/monkey evolution I am using the 10 million years which EVOLUTIONISTS claim it took to separate man from chimps which are supposedly the closest to man by some 1%. This comes out to some 30,000,000 base pair mutations as I have already explained. This totally disproves the evolution of man. Evolutionists always talk as if it had infinite time, but by their own calculations, some 100 million years for mammals to have arisen, some 500 million for just about all multi-celled creatures to have arisen, there is no infinite time for the numerous mutations which were needed for the numerous changes required to create all the fantastically different species.

Now this lack of a egg creates a new problem for mammals that reptiles don't have. Without the time in the egg mammals are less physically delevoped at birth so need more care by its parent. In fact live birth is almost easier to explain than the original rise of the eggs itself. Now this was very simple refutation and does not include modern evolutinary idea such as genetic drift fromspecies to species but i don't expect everyone to understand this sort of genetic theory.

That is not the question. According to evolutionists mammals descended from reptiles which lay eggs. The question, which you have been avoiding for a few hundred posts already is how - while continuing to reproduce - the change was accomplished. Clearly this is impossible for the simple reason that there are numerous different genes, functions, and entire systems which had to be changed in order for this change to be accomplished and to propose not only that such numerous changes arose to work together to change the reproductive system of a species, but that in addition they occurred all at once is totally impossible. That is why you have been avoiding the question, why you are trying to change the question now, and why NOT A SINGLE EVOLUTIONIST CAN EXPLAIN IN A DETAILED MANNER HOW SUCH A CHANGE OCCURRED.. Let's see you find a reference that explains the scientific facts of how such a transformation occurred in an evolutionary way. You will never find it.

1,170 posted on 12/28/2002 10:22:30 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Yeah. Checked out Robert Humphrey's slideshow. The man is a crackpot. Perhaps at some point in his life he was a productive intelligent man in society, but he has most definetely lost it. He uses all of these "facts" to determine other "facts" about the age of the earth. Even when he fudges the figures to his favor, he finds the earth is 2 million, 62 million, 10 million, etc. years old. Then in order to save himself, he says, "And it could be much younger!". Why? Even using your ridiculous assumptions the Earth is 62 million years old, but "could be younger"! Why argue these points at all unless they show 6,000 years old? After this ridiculous argument, he says "See you can trust the Bible!"

Mandatory disclaimer: I am still not bashing religion, I am severely bashing the creator of this presentation for his insanity...
1,171 posted on 12/28/2002 10:47:27 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: Sentis
Your post is a total lie and an attempt at confusing the issue. Here from National Geographic which is a very pro-evolution purlication:

Further experiments by the same team showed that 98.5 percent of DNA sequences are shared by humans and chimps. The same methods showed that two humans share 99.9 percent of their DNA. In contrast, the DNA of humans and mice is only around 60 percent similar.
From: Humans and Chimps Not As Closely Related as Thought?

There is no other numeric comparison possible. These 30,000,000 mutations HAD TO HAPPEN for the difference between humans and chimps to exist, regardless of the nonsense you wish to push. That you challenge the numbers shows that you yourself know that it is impossible.

BTW - here are some articles on exactly how the differences in DNA were estimated. They prove you a liar:

Britten compared the sequence of five chimp BACs covering 779 kilobases with the draft human genome sequence. Sequence substitutions account for about 1.4% divergence, but twice as much divergence (3.6%) is contributed by indels. The frequency of indels is less than the frequency of substitutions, but the gaps can be tens of nucleotides long and appear in both human and chimp sequences. Further analysis of the gaps in other genomes may provide useful insights into evolutionary relationships between humans and our closest relatives.
From: The Scientist - How different are we from Chimps

Roy Britten, a biologist at the California Institute of Technology, reported in the current issue of the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA that the large amount of sequencing that has been done in recent years on both the human and chimp genomes - and improvements in the techniques themselves - allow for the issue to be revisited. In the article, he described the method he used, which involved writing a special computer program to compare nearly 780,000 base pairs of the human genome with a similar number from the chimp genome.
From: OBGYN.net - Genome Compatibility

Britten based this on a computer program that compared 780,000 of the 3 billion base pairs in the human DNA helix with those of the chimp. He found more mismatches than earlier researchers had, and concluded that at least 3.9 percent of the DNA bases were different. From: CBS News- Chimps & Humans - Vive La Difference

BTW - with the 5% difference that has now been determined that makes it that 150 million mutations were needed to transform humans from chimps - making it five times more impossible than what you yourself considered a refutation of evolution.

1,172 posted on 12/28/2002 10:48:16 AM PST by gore3000
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To: B. Rabbit
Well the Ten Commandments is the basis of Judaism and Christianity so if you find no problem with someone following them it seems to me that the statement which I responded to that " Spiritualists not only deny their own earthly humanity, but also everything that is good in life here on earth in order to arrogantly proclaim they know more about invisible kingdoms." is just plain wrong.-me-

You are trying to make me look like I am bashing religion.

No, I am making direct quote of what you said. I am showing that your original statement that religion makes people deny what is good in life is false in view that you see nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments and claim to follow most of them yourself.

1,173 posted on 12/28/2002 10:52:09 AM PST by gore3000
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To: whattajoke
Yes But Gore still won't answer the question and he again restated his silly thing about 30,000,000 base pairs when common sense tells us that with 6 billion people residing on Earth That there are 6,000,000,000 different sets of DNA in the human genome at this moment which mean there are 6,000,000,000 changes in DNA base pairs in the human species alone. That dwarfs 30,000,000 difference in Base pairs of course he doesn't understand that his basic assumption is already flawed becuase he doesn't take into count the chromosomal difference which is not a DNA base pair difference but a diffference in how DNA is arranged within the cell. That bring the problem down from a 30,000,000 problem to one of 24 or 23 pairs of chromosomes.

Second he still clings to the egg buisness after I proved he is wrong. Basically he is a liar that will not answer a Basic Question



How Old is the Earth?
1,174 posted on 12/28/2002 10:53:29 AM PST by Sentis
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
If you want to tell us the world is 6,000 years old go ahead. But I must tell you as an archaeologist I pick up artifacts almost everyday older than that and Gore3000 has debated that Neanderthal DNA has been discovered (obviously they aren't Humans and they died out long before the 6000 year date) I also only want to prove Gore3000 a liar again so I ask.

How Old is the Earth?
1,175 posted on 12/28/2002 10:57:25 AM PST by Sentis
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To: B. Rabbit
Even using your ridiculous assumptions

They aren't my 'assumptions'. I was simply pointing out to everyone that there are competing theories out there to the 4.5 billion year 'assumption' that scientists are going on.

1,176 posted on 12/28/2002 10:59:26 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
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To: PatrickHenry
In the past, whenever one of the dedicated creationists gets into trouble in a thread,

It is you and your friends who are trying to divert from a scientific discussion on this thread. That is why as soon as I made my post# 988, 989 and 991 asking for explanations which evolutionists could not give, you folk started attacking me and trying to divert the discussion with the totally irrelevant 'how old is the earth' question which you ask to turn this into a religious discussion. Again I ask, if evolution is true, how come no evolutionist can give a scientific answer to the challenges made to them in the following posts:

Neither you nor any evolutionists has ever given proof that a single species has transformed itself into another more complex species. If I am wrong, let's see the proof. Come up with a real arguement that slams evolution can you do it?

There are many. The bacterial flagellum is one. The program by which a single cell at conception turns into a 100 trillion cells at the time of birth - with every single cell of the exactly proper kind in the exactly proper place is another. There are many more which have been scientifically proven, but these two should keep you busy for a while.
988 posted on 12/23/2002 7:07 AM PST by gore3000

'Gradual loss of egg laying' is more easily said than done. You must remember that the you need to provide nutrition to the developing organism throughout its development - as well as after the birth until it can feed itself. To say that all these changes can occur simultaneously is totally ludicrous and you have disproven nothing. Let's see an article describing how this change occurred in detail. Can you find any? I doubt it because this is one of the things evolutionists never speak of.
989 posted on 12/23/2002 7:14 AM PST by gore3000

And where did you debunk the flagellum besides in your own mind?

As to the eye spot, your article only says that because it happened more than once then therefore the eye spot could have occurred. It is not a refutation of the complex mechanism required for an eye spot.

BTW - a blog from Don Lindsay is proof of absolutely nothing. The guy cannot even give references for his nonsense.

991 posted on 12/23/2002 7:28 AM PST by gore3000

1,177 posted on 12/28/2002 11:01:00 AM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
Right... so anyway.

How old is the Earth?
1,178 posted on 12/28/2002 11:03:54 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: B. Rabbit
Good question, worth repeating for the creationoids, who have yet to answer: How old is the earth?
1,179 posted on 12/28/2002 11:10:53 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: gore3000
gore3000 wrote "That you challenge the numbers shows that you yourself know that it is impossible"

No that I challenge the numbers shows that I am shining a light on the lies you are spouting.

gore3000 wrote "that 98.5 percent of DNA sequences are shared by humans and chimps. The same methods showed that two humans share 99.9 percent of their DNA"

Hmm so out of the 6,000,000,000 humans on earth there are only .01 percent of difference and for all the chimps on Earth there is a 1.5 percent difference. This seems very plausible when we look at the chromosomal evidence are you trying to say that hUmans should have a closer link to Chimps? You confuse the issue by using base pair difference when you know the differences between humans on this planet is almost as great as that difference between humans and chimps. Thats why its called a 1% difference. So by your logic you deny that there are 6,000,000,000 different humans with different DNA sequences than that is 6,000,000,000 mutations or I should say permutations of the humans genome. These 6,000,000,000 different permutations in the Human genome occurred in just the past say 110 years as all humans alive today were born in this time period. That means that simnply by birth and selection the Human genome has at the minimum created 6,000,000,000 unique and different base pairs in little over 110 years. With that in mind and the fact that Humans and chimps diverged genetically I think about 10 million years ago I think 30,000,000 different base pairs between the species is pretty easy to explain. In fact as i said it has nothing to do with the DNA base pairs as you can see becuase if we shared those base pairs out of the 6,000,000,000 billion human combinations someone would have been born a Chimp. The difference between Humans and chimps is definatively and you cannot argue in the chromosomes. (well you will argue but you havent a leg to stand on you will just say "no it isn't")


Withj that said How old is the Earth?
1,180 posted on 12/28/2002 11:13:13 AM PST by Sentis
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