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To: drstevej; xzins
***If you are, then it is not faith in the Cross that saves you but Election that does*** Faith is directed toward the object of faith, Jesus Christ. He is the one who saves. The Father elected me in eternity past, the Son died for me on the cross at Calvary, and the Holy Spirit brought me to faith. Prior to faith I was not justified. ***Are you regenerated before you believe or not? *** I affirm the logical not temporal precedence of regeneration to faith. KEY POINT, pay attention. They are simultaneous.

Yes, I have heard the Calvinists try to 'wiggle' out of the problem of Regeneration by making it 'logical' and not temporal, the only point is that it will not wash.

You cannot believe until you are regenerated so you can believe.

Regeneration must precede faith in your system

As Sproul plainly says, 'the Reformed view of predestination teaches that before a person can choose Christ his heart must be changed. He must be born again. He then points out that the maxim 'Regeneration precedes faith' is 'a cardinal point of Reformed theology'....So after adamantly insisting that regeneration precedes faith, some Calvinists, even those who would not go so far as Hoeksema, Berkhof, and the Primitive Baptists, sensing that their views will not stand the test of Scripture attempt to palliate their maxim. After stating the the new birth is the cause of repentence and faith, Keener regresses and says; 'I am not telling you that you are born again and you begin to believe and to repent later' Sproul after terming regeneration 'the necessary conditon of faith' claims that believer's act of faith are simultaneous, not separated, with respect to time. He posits that regeneration precedes faith 'with respect to logical priority, not temporal priority' After stating that conversion both repentence and faith, the Baptist theologian maintains that 'regeneration and conversion' are not choronologically separate' 'They are 'but the divine and human sides of the same fact'

Contrary to any variety of Calvinism, the Bible is perfectly clear that the imputed righteousness of Christ, which is the basis for our justification and spiritual blessings is given after a man believes (Rom.4:22-24) In the Bible a man has life because he believes, he does not believe because he has life;(Vance, The Other Side of Calvinism, p.521,526)

Thus, both the logical and temporal order is faith then regeneration, not faith because of regeneration.

As for the faith being given, Wesley believed that also, but did not hold that one could not reject that faith, thus, the individual with prevenient grace,could make a decision to accept or reject the faith.

The Calvinist's with their view of regeneration before faith, make any rejection impossible, thus, election not faith is the basis for their salvation.

2,402 posted on 12/15/2002 4:43:50 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration
You are much better at telling me what I believe than listening to what I am saying.

Maybe you will listen to the Bible,

1 John 5:1, "Everyone who believes [present tense] that Jesus is the Christ has been born [perfect tense] of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him."
2,404 posted on 12/15/2002 4:55:17 AM PST by drstevej
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To: fortheDeclaration
The Calvinist's with their view of regeneration before faith, make any rejection impossible, thus, election not faith is the basis for their salvation.

Interesting food for thought and study....

2,419 posted on 12/15/2002 9:12:08 AM PST by nobdysfool
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