Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Is Satan Bound Today?
BibleBB ^ | Mike Vlach

Posted on 11/14/2002 11:56:40 AM PST by xzins

An Analysis of the Amillennial Interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3.

1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time (Revelation 20:1-3).

One distinctive of amillennial theology is the belief that Satan is bound during this present age. This belief stems from an interpretation that sees the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 as being fulfilled today. The purpose of this work is examine the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 and address the question, "Is Satan bound today?" In doing this, our evaluation will include the following: 1) a brief definition of amillennialism; 2) a look at the amillennial approach to interpreting Revelation; 3) an explanation and analysis of the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3; and 4) some concluding thoughts.

DEFINITION OF AMILLENNIALISM

Amillennialism is the view that there will be no future reign of Christ on the earth for a thousand years.1 Instead, the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned six times in Revelation 20 is being fulfilled during the present age. According to amillennialists, the "thousand years" is not a literal thousand years but is figurative for "a very long period of indeterminate length." 2 Thus the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 describes the conditions of the present age between the two comings of Christ. During this period Satan is bound (Rev. 20:1-3) and Christ's Kingdom is being fulfilled (Rev. 20:4-6).3

THE AMILLENNIAL APPROACH TO INTERPRETING REVELATION

Before looking specifically at how amillennialists interpret Revelation 20:1-3, it is important to understand how they approach the Book of Revelation. Amillennialists base their interpretation of the Book of Revelation on a system of interpretation known as progressive parallelism. This interpretive system does not view the events of Revelation from a chronological or sequential perspective but, instead, sees the book as describing the church age from several parallel perspectives that run concurrently. 4 Anthony Hoekema, an amillennialist, describes progressive parallelism in the following manner:

According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of his second.5

Following the work of William Hendriksen,6 Hoekema believes there are seven sections of Revelation that describe the present age. These seven sections give a portrait of conditions on heaven and earth during this period between the two comings of Christ. These seven sections which run parallel to each other are chapters 1-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-14, 15-16, 17-19 and 20-22. What is significant for our purposes is that amillennialists see Revelation 20:1 as taking the reader back to the beginning of the present age. As Hoekema states, "Revelation 20:1 takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era."7

Amillennialists, thus, do not see a chronological connection between the events of Revelation 19:11-21 that describe the second coming of Christ, and the millennial reign discussed in Revelation 20:1-6. As Hendriksen says, "Rev. 19:19ff. carried us to the very end of history, to the day of final judgment. With Rev. 20 we return to the beginning of our present dispensation."8 The amillennial view sees chapter nineteen as taking the reader up to the second coming, but the beginning of chapter twenty takes him back once again to the beginning of the present age. In other words, the events of Revelation 20:1-6 do not follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21.

THE AMILLENNIAL VIEW OF REVELATION 20:1-3

With the principle of progressive parallelism as his base, the amillennialist holds that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 took place at Christ's first coming.9 This binding ushered in the millennial kingdom. As William Cox says,

Having bound Satan, our Lord ushered in the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20. This millennium commenced at the first advent and will end at the second coming, being replaced by the eternal state.10

Thus the present age is the millennium and one characteristic of this millennial period is that Satan is now bound. This binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3, according to the amillennialist, finds support in the Gospels, particularly Jesus' binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:29. As Hoekema states,

Is there any indication in the New Testament that Satan was bound at the time of the first coming of Christ? Indeed there is. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan, Jesus replied, "How can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?" (Mt. 12:29). 11

Hoekema also points out that the word used by Matthew (delta epsilon omega) to describe the binding of the strong man is the same word used in Revelation 20 to describe the binding of Satan.12 In addition to Matthew 12:29, amillennialists believe they have confirming exegetical support from Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32. In Luke 10, when the seventy disciples returned from their mission they said to Jesus, "'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'" And He said to them, 'I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning'" (Luke 10:17-18). According to Hoekema, "Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan's kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow-that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place."13

John 12:31-32, another supporting text used by amillennialists states: "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Hoekema points out that the verb translated "cast out" (epsilon kappa beta alpha lambda lambda omega) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3 when it says an angel "threw [ballo] him into the abyss." 14

What is the significance of this binding of Satan according the amillennial position? This binding has special reference to Satan's ability to deceive the nations during the present age. Because Satan is now bound, he is no longer able to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ. Before Christ's first coming, all the nations of the world, except Israel, were under the deception of Satan. Except for the occasional person, family or city that came into contact with God's people or His special revelation, Gentiles, as a whole, were shut out from salvation.15 With the coming of Christ, however, Jesus bound Satan, and in so doing, removed his ability to deceive the nations. This binding, though, did not mean a total removal of Satan's activity, for Satan is still active and able to do harm. As Cox says, "Satan now lives on probation until the second coming."16 But while he is bound, Satan is no longer able to prevent the spread of the Gospel nor is he able to destroy the Church. Also, according to amillennialists, the "abyss" to which Satan is assigned is not a place of final punishment but a figurative description of the way Satan's activities are being curbed during this age.17

Hoekema summarizes the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 by saying,

"We conclude, then, that the binding of Satan during the Gospel age means that, first, he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel, and second, he cannot gather all the enemies of Christ together to attack the church."18

AN ANALYSIS OF THE AMILLENNIAL INTERPRETATION OF REVELATION 20:1-3

Though amillennial scholars have clearly and logically laid out their case for the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3, there are serious hermeneutical, exegetical and theological difficulties with their interpretation of this text.

1) The approach to interpreting Revelation known as "progressive parallelism is highly suspect The first difficulty to be examined is hermeneutical and deals with the amillennial approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation. In order for the amillennial interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3 to be correct, the interpretive approach to Revelation known as "progressive parallelism" must also be accurate. Yet this approach which sees seven sections of Revelation running parallel to each other chronologically is largely unproven and appears arbitrary. As Hoekema admits, the approach of progressive parallelism, "is not without its difficulties."19

The claim that Revelation 20:1 "takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era,"20 does not seem warranted from the text. There certainly are no indicators within the text that the events of Revelation 20:1 take the reader back to the beginning of the present age. Nor are there textual indicators that the events of Revelation 20 should be separated chronologically from the events of Revelation 19:11-21. In fact, the opposite is the case. The events of Revelation 20 seem to follow naturally the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. If one did not have a theological presupposition that the millennium must be fulfilled in the present age, what indicators within the text would indicate that 20:1 takes the reader back to the beginning of the church era? A normal reading indicates that Christ appears from heaven (19:11-19), He destroys his enemies including the beast and the false prophet (19:20-21) and then He deals with Satan by binding him and casting him into the abyss (20:1-3). As Ladd says, "There is absolutely no hint of any recapitulation in chapter 20."21

That John uses the formula "and I saw" (kappa alpha iota  epsilon iota delta omicron nu) at the beginning of Revelation 20:1 also gives reason to believe that what he is describing is taking place in a chronological manner.22 Within Revelation 19-22, this expression is used eight times (19:11, 17, 19; 20:1, 4, 11, 12; 21:1). When John uses "and I saw," he seems to be describing events in that are happening in a chronological progression. Commenting on these eight uses of "and I saw" in this section, Thomas states,

The case favoring chronological sequence in the fulfillment of these scenes is very strong. Progression from Christ's return to the invitation to the birds of prey and from that invitation to the defeat of the beast is obvious. So is the progression from the binding of Satan to the Millennium and final defeat of Satan and from the final defeat to the new heaven and new earth with all this entails. The interpretation allowing for chronological arrangement of these eight scenes is one-sidedly strong. 23

A natural reading of the text indicates that the events of Revelation 20 follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21. It is also significant that Hoekema, himself, admits that a chronological reading of Revelation would naturally lead one to the conclusion that the millennium follows the second coming when he says, "If, then, one thinks of Revelation 20 as describing what follows chronologically after what is described in chapter 19, one would indeed conclude that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 will come after the return of Christ.24

Herman Hoyt, when commenting on this statement by Hoekema, rightly stated, "This appears to be a fatal admission."25 And it is. Hoekema admits that a normal reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would not lead one to the amillennial position. In a sense, the amillennialist is asking the reader to disregard the plain meaning of the text for an assumption that has no exegetical warrant. As Hoyt says,

To the average person the effort to move the millennium to a place before the Second Coming of Christ is demanding the human mind to accede to something that does not appear on the face of the text. But even more than that, the effort to make seven divisions cover the same period of time (between the first and second comings) will meet with all sorts of confusion to establish its validity. At best this is a shaky foundation upon which to establish a firm doctrine of the millennium. 26

The hermeneutical foundation of amillennialism is, indeed, a shaky one. The seriousness of this must not be underestimated. For if the amillennialist is wrong on his approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation, his attempt at placing Satan's binding during the present age has suffered a major if not fatal blow.

2) The amillennial view does not adequately do justice to the language of Revelation 20:1-3 According to the amillennial view, Satan is unable to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ, but he is still active and able to do harm in this age. His activities, then, have not ceased but are limited.27 This, however, does not do justice to what is described in Revelation 20:1-3. According to the text, Satan is "bound" with a "great chain" (vv.1-2) and thrown into the "abyss" that is "shut" and "sealed" for a thousand years (v. 3). This abyss acts as a "prison" (v. 7) until the thousand years are completed. The acts of binding, throwing, shutting and sealing indicate that Satan's activities are completely finished. As Mounce states:

The elaborate measures taken to insure his [Satan's] custody are most easily understood as implying the complete cessation of his influence on earth (rather than a curbing of his activities)."28

Berkouwer, who himself is an amillennialist, admits that the standard amillennial explanation of this text does not do justice to what is described:

Those who interpret the millennium as already realized in the history of the church try to locate this binding in history. Naturally, such an effort is forced to relativize the dimensions of this binding, for it is impossible to find evidence for a radical elimination of Satan's power in that "realized millennium." . . . The necessary relativizing of John's description of Satan's bondage (remember that Revelation 20 speaks of a shut and sealed pit) is then explained by the claim that, although Satan is said to deceive the nations no more (vs. 3), this does not exclude satanic activity in Christendom or individual persons. I think it is pertinent to ask whether this sort of interpretation really does justice to the radical proportions of the binding of Satan-that he will not be freed from imprisonment for a thousand years. 29

The binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is set forth in strong terms that tell of the complete cessation of his activities. The amillennial view that Satan's binding is just a restriction or a "probation," as Cox has stated,30 does not hold up under exegetical scrutiny.

3) The amillennial view conflicts with the New Testament's depiction of Satan's activities in the present age The view that Satan is bound during this age contradicts multiple New Testament passages which show that Satan is presently active and involved in deception. He is "the god of this world [who] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is our adversary who "prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). In the church age he was able to fill the heart of Ananias (Acts 5:3) and "thwart" the work of God's ministers (1 Thess. 2:18). He is one for whom we must protect ourselves from by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-19). Satan's influence in this age is so great that John declared "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19). These passages do not depict a being who has been bound and shut up in a pit. As Grudem has rightly commented, "the theme of Satan's continual activity on earth throughout the church age, makes it extremely difficult to think that Satan has been thrown into the bottomless pit."31

What then of the amillennial argument that Matthew 12:29 teaches that Jesus bound Satan at His first coming? The answer is that this verse does not teach that Satan was bound at that time. What Jesus stated in Matthew 12:29 is that in order for kingdom conditions to exist on the earth, Satan must first be bound. He did not say that Satan was bound yet. As Toussaint says:

By this statement He [Jesus] previews John the Apostle's discussion in Revelation 20. Jesus does not say He has bound Satan or is even in the process of doing so. He simply sets the principle before the Pharisees. His works testify to His ability to bind Satan, and therefore they attest His power to establish the kingdom.32

Jesus' casting out of demons (Matt. 12:22-29) was evidence that He was the Messiah of Israel who could bring in the kingdom. His mastery over demons showed that He had the authority to bind Satan. But as the multiple New Testament texts have already affirmed, this binding did not take place at Christ's first coming. It will, though, at His second. What Jesus presented as principle in Matthew 12:29 will come to fulfillment in Revelation 20:1-3.

Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32 certainly tell of Christ's victory over Satan but these passages do not teach that Satan is bound during this age. No Christian denies that the work of Christ, especially his death on the cross, brought a crushing defeat to Satan, but the final outworking of that defeat awaits the second coming. That is why Paul could tell the believers at Rome that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Romans 16:20).

For the one contemplating the validity of amillennialism the question must be asked, Does the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 accurately describe Satan's condition today? An analysis of multiple scriptural texts along with the present world situation strongly indicates that the answer is No.

4) Satan's deceiving activities continue throughout most of the Book of Revelation According to amillennialists, Satan was bound at the beginning of the Church age and he no longer has the ability to deceive the nations during the present age. But within the main sections of Revelation itself, Satan is pictured as having an ongoing deceptive influence on the nations. If Satan is bound during this age and Revelation describes conditions during this present age, we should expect to see a cessation of his deceptive activities throughout the book. But the opposite is the case. Satan's deception is very strong throughout Revelation. Revelation 12:9, for instance, states that "Satan. . . deceives the whole world." This verse presents Satan as a present deceiver of the world, not one who is bound.33

Satan's deception is also evident in the authority he gives to the first beast (Rev. 13:2) and the second beast who "deceives those who dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:14). Satan is certainly the energizer of political Babylon of whom it is said, "all the nations were deceived by your sorcery" (Revelation 18:23).

Satan's ability to deceive the nations throughout the Book of Revelation shows that he was not bound at the beginning of the present age. Grudem's note on the mentioned passages is well taken, "it seems more appropriate to say that Satan is now still deceiving the nations, but at the beginning of the millennium this deceptive influence will be removed."34

CONCLUSION

The amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 that Satan is bound during this age is not convincing and fails in several ways. Hermeneutically it fails in that its approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation is based on the flawed system of progressive parallelism. This system forces unnatural breaks in the text that a normal reading of Revelation does not allow. This is especially true with the awkward break between the millennial events of Revelation 20 and the account of the second coming in Revelation 19:11-21. Exegetically, the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 does not do justice to the language of the text. The binding described in this passage clearly depicts a complete cessation of Satan's activities-not just a limitation as amillennialists believe. Theologically, the view that Satan is bound today simply does not fit with the multiple New Testament texts that teach otherwise. Nor can the amillennial view be reconciled with the passages within Revelation itself that show Satan as carrying on deceptive activity. To answer the question posed in the title of this work, "Is Satan bound today?" The answer from the biblical evidence is clearly, No.


Footnotes

1. The prefix "a-" means "no." Amillennialism, therefore, means "no millennium."

2. Anthony Hoekema, "Amillennialism," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, Robert G. Clouse, ed. (Downers Grove: Inter Varsity, 1977), p. 161.

3. Among amillennial lists there are differences of opinion as to exactly what Christ's millennial reign specifically is. Augustine, Allis and Berkhof believed the millennial reign of Christ refers to the Church on earth. On the other hand, Warfield taught that Christ's kingdom involves deceased saints who are reigning with Christ from heaven.

4. This approach to Revelation can be traced to the African Donatist, Tyconius, a late fourth-century interpreter. Millennium based on a recapitulation method of interpretation. Using this principle Tyconius saw Revelation as containing several different visions that repeated basic themes throughout the book. Tyconius also interpreted the thousand years of Revelation 20:1-6 in nonliteral terms and understood the millennial period as referring to the present age. This recapitulation method was adopted by Augustine and has carried on through many Roman Catholic and Protestant interpreters. See Alan Johnson, "Reve lation,"Expositor's Bible Commentary, Frank E. Gaebelein, ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), v. 12, pp. 578-79.

5. Hoekena, pp. 156-57.

6. William Hendriksen, More Than Conquerors (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1940).

7. Hoekema, p. 160.

8. Hendriksen, p. 221.

9. Hendriksen defines what the amillennialist means by "first coming." "When we say 'the first coming' we have reference to all the events associated with it, from the incarnation to the coronation. We may say, therefore, that the binding of satan [sic], according to all these passages, begins with that first coming" Hendriksen, p.226.

10. William E. Cos, Amillennialism Today (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1966), p. 58.

11. Hoekema, p. 162.

12. Hoekema, pp. 162-63.

13. Hoekema, p. 163.

14. Hoekema, pp. 163-64.

15. Hoekema, p. 161.

16. Cox, p. 57.

17. Hoekema, p. 161.

18. Hoekema, p. 162.

19. Hoekema, p. 156.

20. Hoekema, p. 160.

21. George Eldon Ladd, "An Historical Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 190.

22. Harold W. Hoehner says, "Though these words are not as forceful a chronological order as 'after these things I saw' ( (meta tauta eidon; 4:1; 7:9; 15:5; 18:1) or 'after these things I heard' ( meta tauta ekousa, 19:1), they do show chronological progression." Harold W. Hoehner, "Evidence from Revelation 20," A case For Premillennialism: A New Consensus, Donald K. Campbell and Jeffrey L. Townsend, eds. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1992), pp. 247-48.

23. Robert. L. Thomas, Revelation 8-22: An Exegetical Commentary (Chicago: Moody, 1995), pp. 247-48.

24. Hoekema, p. 159.

25. Herman A. Hoyt, "A Dispensational Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 193.

26. Hoyt, p. 194.

27. As Cox says, "Satan's binding refers (in figurative language) to the limiting of his power." Cox, p. 59.

28. Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation (Grand Rapids: Eerchnans, 1977), p. 353. Grudem also adds, "More than a mere binding or restriction of activity is in view here. The imagery of throwing Satan into a pit and shutting it and sealing it over him gives a picture of total removal from influence on the earth." Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology

29. G.C.Berkouwer, The Return of Christ, Studies in Dogmatics (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1972), p. 305.

30. Cox, p. 57.

31. Grudem, p. 1118.

32. Stanley D. Toussaint, Behold the King: A Study of Matthew (Portland: Multnomah, 1981), p. 305.

33. The argument that the casting down of Satan in Revelation 12:9 is the same event as the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 breaks down for two reasons. First, in Revelation 12:9 Satan was thrown from heaven to the earth. But in Revelation 20:1-3 he is taken from the earth to the abyss. Second, in Revelation 12:9 Satan's activities, including his deception of the nations, continue, while in Revelation 20:1-3 his activities are completely stopped as he is shut up and sealed in the abyss.

34. Grudem, p. 1118.


Back to Top


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; devil; evil; lucifer; satan; thedoc
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 2,981-3,0003,001-3,0203,021-3,040 ... 3,801-3,803 next last
To: nobdysfool
Private reply
3,001 posted on 12/19/2002 1:39:36 PM PST by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2993 | View Replies]

To: gdebrae
Since according to Ezek 39 gog and magog's weapons are mostly wood plus horses and chariots, when do you think this battle takes place? And when did the seven year period of using all the weapons for fuel take place?

I give:>)

3,002 posted on 12/19/2002 1:46:32 PM PST by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2995 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
Millennium

spelling impaired ..spelling impaired...spelling impaired:>) It is one of those words I draw a blank on..I ask the indulgence  of readers

3,003 posted on 12/19/2002 1:49:38 PM PST by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3000 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
I have read some reform stuff on this which tends to be in agreement with your perception of this scripture., because of the nature of symbolic scriptures I am open to your reading of it ...but will hold onto the blueprint for a bit:>)

That's fine -- continue to chew on it. God bless.

best, op

3,004 posted on 12/19/2002 2:27:50 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2996 | View Replies]

To: xzins
I'm curious about how you perceive life during your understanding of the earthly millennial reign of Christ for a thousand years.

If I understand your position all those who are alive at the end of the seven years tribulation after the rapture of the church will enter the millennial kingdom. Israel will be reborn. Will the church be involved also? (I'm not clear on that.) For the sake of discussion let's say this will happen in 10 years. Will modern technology as we know it survive into the millennial kingdom? Will cities like New York, London, Paris, etc. be pretty much as they are now? Will national boundries exist pretty much as they are now? Since Christ is to rule the nations it would seem so. What kind of work will people do? Will technology continue to advance for another 1000 years? If so, considering as fast as technology is developing now, there must be some very fascinating stuff in store down the road.

I'm also curious how Christ will use the rod of iron. Will the police forces that currently exist come under his control or will their be angelic power that insures submission to his rule, so that there is peace and prosperity?

I'm asking these for two reasons.

First I have given much thought about what life would be like in a renewed, sinless creation. Will there be animals, trees, flowers, etc? What kind of work will we do? God's promise is that this creation will be renewed, just as our very bodies will be renewed (Romans 8:18ff).

The second reason comes out of looking at Ezek 38-39. If that does foretell the battle of Rev. 20:7-10 then it surprises me a bit that there would be only wooden weapons. That is pretty crude compared to modern weapons of war. OTH, it may be as you view it, that Christ will destroy all weapons of individual and mass destruction at the beginning of the millennium, so that the only available material for weapons at the end of the millennium will be wood and crude iron. Will all modern tranportation disappear so that horses, wagons, chariots, etc. are necessary?

I would appreciate your view on all this.

3,005 posted on 12/19/2002 2:28:19 PM PST by gdebrae
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2995 | View Replies]

To: xzins
I am so aversed to the doctrine of amillennialism that even when the doctor wants to look at my throat and tells me to say 'ah' I refuse to.
3,006 posted on 12/19/2002 2:41:27 PM PST by VOYAGER
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7; Jerry_M; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Matchett-PI; Jean Chauvin; gdebrae; CCWoody
It's just an awesome text, of course.

John 5:24-29 really is one of the more important passages in the New Testament, IMHO. (I sensed this about the passage even before I became an amill.)

3,007 posted on 12/19/2002 2:55:58 PM PST by the_doc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2998 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
wasn't a critique of your spelling... 3,000 is three millenniums. we premils like to see 3000 written this way :)
3,008 posted on 12/19/2002 3:05:17 PM PST by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3003 | View Replies]

To: gdebrae; BibChr
Gdeb, I'm torn between identifying it with the Rev 20 battle involving Gog/magog AND fitting it somewhere into eschatological history now.

I lean in the direction of the Rev 20 battle because it says at the end of time God would put the hook into gog/magog's jaw.

A simpler civilization would fit the time of the millennial reign. All of the former weapons of war would have been destroyed at the coming of Christ. "Swords into plowshares, spears into pruning hooks....neither shall they learn war anymore."
3,009 posted on 12/19/2002 4:05:33 PM PST by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2995 | View Replies]

To: VOYAGER; the_doc
I am so aversed to the doctrine of amillennialism that even when the doctor wants to look at my throat and tells me to say 'ah' I refuse to.

We have a doc here who might find that contrary to his position. Ahhhhhh millennial

Are you premill?

3,010 posted on 12/19/2002 4:24:36 PM PST by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3006 | View Replies]

To: xzins
A simpler civilization would fit the time of the millennial reign. All of the former weapons of war would have been destroyed at the coming of Christ. "Swords into plowshares, spears into pruning hooks....neither shall they learn war anymore." ~ xzins (making me laugh again Woody.
3,011 posted on 12/19/2002 4:24:46 PM PST by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3009 | View Replies]

To: the_doc
Copied and sent to a friend:>)
3,012 posted on 12/19/2002 4:27:20 PM PST by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3007 | View Replies]

To: gdebrae
Actually, I don't see the earth in very good shape when Christ returns. The judgments (earthquakes, famines, fires, diseases, etc) of Rev will decimate the earth. The final battle will obliterate the armies.

I don't think the technology will necessarily be advanced at all. Ecologically, there's something to be said for the horse and buggy. Ask my Amish neighbors. LOL!!
3,013 posted on 12/19/2002 4:28:23 PM PST by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3005 | View Replies]

To: CCWoody; gdebrae; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Actually, for a short while Satan will be released to deceive the nations again.

For what it's worth, I was respectful of answers provided earlier to questions I'd asked. While I'm convinced that amillennialism's reliance on symbolism far exceeds the reasonable, I didn't make fun of it.

It is quite simple for me to do the same. I can simply symbolize everything EXCEPT the 1000 year reign. ANYTHING said is symbolic of spiritual warfare or spiritual blessing on this side of the literal 1000 years. Rn, the sacrifices in Ezek are symbolic. The temple is symbolic. The wars are symbolic. The enemies are symbolic. The victories are symbolic. The weapons are symbolic. The animals are symbolic. EVERY FLIPPIN' THING in sight is symbolic.

If you wish to learn how I answer it fine. If you don't, then I won't answer.

3,014 posted on 12/19/2002 4:37:51 PM PST by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3011 | View Replies]

To: xzins
It's a good thing that my .45 is not a sword. I'd hate to have to turn it into a plow. Gosh, do you think that 2000 rds is enough for the millennium or do you think I might need a few cases more? Perhaps a hundred rds of 270 isn't enough either. Eventually, I'd be killing my venison with my bare hands.
3,015 posted on 12/19/2002 4:37:58 PM PST by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3013 | View Replies]

To: CCWoody
You're simply not worth it.

3,016 posted on 12/19/2002 4:45:06 PM PST by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3015 | View Replies]

To: DouglasKC; Jean Chauvin; gdebrae; nobdysfool; Frumanchu; wai-ming; Matchett-PI; RnMomof7; ...
Following is my exposition of the second parallelism found in the passage which we have been discussing.

John 5:25:...The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:28-29:...the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In both verses, we find the language “the hour is coming,” but this repetition actually serves to accentuate the fact that v.28 does not go on to say “and now is.”

That, in turn, emphasizes a very important point about the pairing which is going on: the first half of the parallelism is talking about an era of resurrections, whereas the second half of the parallelism is talking about an episode.

The first part of the parallelism is presenting spiritual resurrection as a phenomenon which certain sinners have in common in the present gospel era. The second part of the parallelism is presenting bodily resurrection as an event of which all physically deceased sinners will partake at a specific hour in the future.

It is very important to see that the first resurrection is a present and iterative phenomenon—not an experiential mass episode. This works perfectly to explain the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20. Revelation 20 contains no evidence that the folks experiencing the first resurrection in that chapter are to be understood as experiencing it all at the same time! The premills just assume that the “first resurrection” is a mass episode.

In other words, the premills have stepped into a trap. They need to show more respect for the Scriptures and the God of those Scriptures.

(There is a decidedly mystical sense in which the regeneration of God’s elect is a collective episode, but this involves the idea that all regeneration episodes are collected at Calvary. [Paul talks about that idea, of course. However, it is not the idea being specifically presented in Revelation 20.])

John 5:25:...The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:28-29:...the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The idea of being spiritually dead (v.25) is actually being contrasted with the idea of being literally, physically dead (v.28). This is why the Lord bothers to say in v.28 “all that are in the graves.” He is making it abundantly clear to us that He is using v.28 to switch back to the more conventional understanding of death!

I conclude from the various switches which are taking place that the Voice which physically raises the dead on the Last Day will be physically audible.

John 5:25:...The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:28-29:...the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Again, we see a switch in wording to make it crystal clear that v.28 is talking about literal, material resurrection from physical death as opposed to the purely spiritual idea of resurrection found in v.25.

***

Please allow me to summarize:

o The Lord is using the device of parallelism to compare a spiritual phenomenon in the present with a materialistic episode in the future.

o As an important part of His rhetorical strategy, He is comparing an era--idiomatically, a continuously iterative hour--with a single hour.

o The Lord is comparing an operation on spiritually dead souls with an operation on physically dead souls.

o He is comparing an operation on certain spiritually dead souls (God’s elect, in fact) with an operation on all physically dead souls (whether elect or reprobate).

In short, He is comparing the gospel-era phenomenon of regeneration—which is tied in the Spirit to the resurrection of Christ Himself--with the spiritual resurrection episode which will occur all at once on the Last Day. And His device of parallelism gives it a strong quality of a "one-two" punch to support what He says at the beginning of v.28: "Marvel not at this..." (v.28a).

Now, it goes without saying that the Lord doesn’t call the phenomenon in v.25 “the first resurrection,” nor does He call the episode in the vv.28-20 “the second resurrection.” But inasmuch as He has gone to INORDINATE lengths to craft a truly elegant parallelism involving two different senses of resurrection--with the spiritual one preceding the materialistic one both in time and in the discussion of these two resurrections!-- the passage obviously does support such labeling by amillennial theologians!

The premills might try to counter this by complaining “You’re just calling these ‘the first resurrection’ and ‘the second resurrection’ because you don’t really believe Revelation 20. You are trying to weasel out of the obvious meaning of Revelation 20—and you are using John 5:25-29 as a nasty excuse for doing so!”

My response would be that the premill just doesn’t believe Revelation 20, inasmuch as believing what Christ says actually requires getting the meaning correct. Pardon me for my boldness in saying so, but the “obvious meaning” of Revelation 20 is the amillennial interpretation. It’s just not obvious to the premills! They are just trying to weasel out of the obvious meaning of Revelation 20--and they are using a profoundly confused hermeneutic as a nasty excuse for doing so!

(Some people have such a serious problem of pride that it incapacitates them. They feel perfectly normal, even wonderfully spiritual. They see nothing wrong with their attitude. They believe only what they want to believe. And that is often different from what the Lord actually means in His Word.)

***

To conclude the present e-mail, let me warn the premills that the Lord LOVES METAPHOR. Gosh, John 5:25-29 demonstrates that in a dramatic way. We’d better not quickly dismiss such a beautiful, elaborate use of metaphor as the Lord has displayed for us in John 5:25-29. As a matter of fact, we must not say “That’s nice”--and then put it on the shelf when we are reading Revelation 20. Since John 5:25-29 was written and distributed to the people of God before Revelation 20 was, we should carry the ideas of John 5:25-29 to Revelation 20.

And the Lord is definitely using two different senses of “coming alive” in Revelation 20. (Heck, even Revelation 20 contains wonderful clues to this effect. But the really clear text for the larger doctrinal exercise is John 5:25-29--which is obviously an amillennial passage.)

I am ultimately warning premills that Revelation 20 is an encrypted text. The literal/materialistic reading is a God-ordained trap. No kidding.

As a matter of fact, the Bible contains quite a lot of these traps. The truth is, the Lord LOVES CONCEALING HIS TRUE MEANINGS. Proverbs 25:2 bluntly warns us about this. And the New Testament warns us that the Lord uses metaphors to seal His enemies in their own confusion.

It follows that we must not smugly assume that Revelation 20--or any other prophecy, for that matter--is to be interpreted in a strictly literal, materialistic way. It may make some folks feel more “spiritual,” more “evangelical,” to make such an assumption and cling to it until hell freezes over. But if the fellow’s assumption is wrong, it renders him a kind of idolater. (Doctrinal error and stubbornness are both forms of idolatry!)

So, any really sober Calvinist would say, we mustn’t make an idol out of a hermeneutical presupposition. Rather, we need to figure out the Lord’s meanings. We need to pay attention to the things which might very well be telling us that our hermeneutic is wrong!

That’s how I got out of premillennialism in the first place, more than two decades ago. I was more interested in being correct than fitting some kind of denominational mold. It took me about a day of really intense, careful study of Revelation 20 and John 5:25-29 to see what was going on. When I saw it, I started laughing!

(Most premills just don’t have God’s wonderful sense of humor, unfortunately. Premills remind me quite a lot of the Romanists who stumble badly over Christ’s deliberately confusing metaphor in John 6:53-56. The Romanists don’t think their error of transubstantiation is very funny—because they are sure it’s not an error. But it is an error. And it is pretty funny to us Calvinists.)

In the next place, the Lord LOVES PARALLELISMS. John 5:24-29 gives us at least two wonderful examples.

The Bible is loaded with both metaphors and parallelisms. We need to understand the Bible’s metaphors, and we have to understand and heed the parallelisms which are often important for understanding the Lord’s metaphors. In the present text, we even need to notice that John 5:25-29 is the parallel text which decrypts Revelation 20.

Screaming out ”NO, IT”S NOT, YOU MORON!” won’t fix your problem. It will just make matters worse for you.

3,017 posted on 12/19/2002 4:46:15 PM PST by the_doc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2991 | View Replies]

To: DouglasKC; the_doc
Hi doug.

These same arguments of doc are all over this 3000 post thread. You can find them answered more than once.

Basically, later, more clear revelation (Rev 20) INTERPRETS earlier and less specific revelation (John 5). In short, God further explained John 5 with Rev 20.
3,018 posted on 12/19/2002 5:00:05 PM PST by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3017 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Actually, for a short while Satan will be released to deceive the nations again. ~ xzins I can simply symbolize everything EXCEPT the 1000 year reign. ~ xzins Woody.
3,019 posted on 12/19/2002 5:34:14 PM PST by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3014 | View Replies]

To: the_doc
Grasshopper, you have learned html well.

Good stuff on the actual verse too. I had never noticed the parallelism:

the dead... shall live &
all that are in the graves... come forth
3,020 posted on 12/19/2002 5:47:36 PM PST by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3017 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 2,981-3,0003,001-3,0203,021-3,040 ... 3,801-3,803 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson