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Government Raid Victims of the "War on Drugs"
http://apll.freeyellow.com/raids.html ^ | ---

Posted on 09/03/2002 7:41:56 AM PDT by JediGirl

Those listed below includes innocent victims of police raids. Remember: Some, though not all, of the below victims never engaged in a single drug activity, yet they were still murdered due to the "War on Drugs."

Even those who did and do engage in drug use do not warrant death. It was (and is) a personal choice and it was (and is) individual's own bodies.

John Adams -- Tennessee

A 62-year-old black man was shot and killed by five white police officers in Lebanon, Tennessee after they burst through the front door of his home at 10:00 PM on a Wednesday night. It turned out their search warrant for drugs was erroneous: It should have been written for the house next door.

David Aguilar -- Arizona

David Aguilar, 44, retired from the military after 20 years and decided to live on his pension so he could be a "stay-at-home dad" to his five youngest children, aged 3 to 15, according to Beth Cascaddan, his neighbor in Three Points, Arizona. "He was extremely devoted to his children," Ms. Cascaddan told reporter Melissa Martinez of the daily Tucson Citizen. Aguilar also coached youth football and baseball.

But on the early afternoon of Friday, January 10, David Aguilar sensed something wrong. There was a man sitting in a car parked alongside the road bordering Aguilar’s property. Aguilar confronted the man and an argument emerged. Seeing that the stranger was not going to move along, Aguilar went back to the house and returned with a gun. The children told neighbor Bonnie Moreno their father was simply trying to scare the man away. There is no indication David Aguilar ever fired. When the man in the car saw Aguilar returning, he drew his own gun and, at 2:45 that Friday afternoon, fired multiple times through his own windshield.

David Aguilar died that evening in a Tucson hospital, of a single gunshot wound to the chest. The shooter was an undercover agent of the federal Drug Enforcement Administration. His name has never been released and he has not spent a single day in prison.

Delbert Bonar -- Ohio

Police in Belpre, Ohio, got a tip that Albert Bonar was growing and selling marijuana. So, on October 15, 1998, they raided the house where Albert lived, and shot to death his father, Delbert Bonar, 57, a janitor. Police did find a small amount of marijuana -- enough for personal consumption. Albert later admitted the marijuana was his.

The police did not find any of the growing plants or large quantities of marijuana the informant allegedly told them about. The informant who gave the false information has not been named. Police told the press that they were just protecting themselves when they riddled the body of Delbert Bonar with bullets. But Carolyn Bonar, daughter-in-law of Delbert, says that all Delbert had in his hands was a water bottle.

The elder Bonar was reaching for his telephone, an offense apparently punishable by death when there is a suspicion that marijuana may be on the premises. Delbert Bonar died instantly from 8 bullet wounds from police gunfire. In his 57 years, he had no criminal record and had never even been arrested.

Vernia Brown -- New York

On Thursday, March 17, 1988, at 10:45 p.m., in the Bronx, Vernia Brown was killed by stray bullets fired in a dispute over illegal drugs. The 19-year-old mother of one was not involved in the dispute, yet her death was a direct consequence of the "War on Drugs".

Scott Bryant -- Wisconsin

Age 29 at time of death when he was shot by police officer Robert Neuman of the Dodge County Sherrif's Department in Beaver Dam, WI, on April 28, 1995. Bryant was unarmed and did not resist in any way when police with a no-knock warrant charged through the door of his home.

His seven-year-old son watched his father die while an ambulance took 35 minutes to arrive. Police later reported finding less than three grams of marijuana (enough for two or three cigarettes). Police claim it may have been an accidental shooting. An accident that has changed the lives of the Bryant family and many others in his state.

Troy James Davis -- Texas

Troy James Davis, 25, died December 15, 1999 at Columbia North Hills Hospital, about 15 minutes after being shot by North Richland Hills police officer Allen Hill. Police had gone to the Davis home to serve a search-and-arrest warrant in connection with an informant's tip that there were drugs in the house. After the shooting, Davis' mother, Barbara Davis, 49, was arrested in connection with the drug possession investigation.

Police broke down the front door of the Davis home when they entered. Police have indicated that no drugs have been found on the home, using the “crime scene” as an excuse for their lack of evidence. One wonders why police broke into the home rather than knocking on the door. What kind of evidence did they have and how did they get it? Who was the informant? Barbara Davis has a defense fund set up on her behalf The Barbara Davis Defense Fund.

Anna (Annie) Rae Dixon -- Texas

Age 84 and bedridden when she was killed by police in a 1992 drug raid in East Texas. No drugs were found in the home. A 28 year-old officer said his automatic pistol accidentally discharged when he kicked open Mrs. Dixon's bedroom door.

Earlier the evening of her death, an informant was given $30 to go into the Dixon home where he claimed he could buy drugs. He emerged with crack cocaine, but police did not search him either before or after the purchase. The informant reported that a few young women and children lived there, but he didn't report about the sick woman.

Police got a search warrant and returned to the house just after 2:00 AM. They sprinted up the ramshackle porch and smashed the front door with a battering ram. As they swept in, the officer kicked in the door to Ms. Dixon's bedroom and fell, slamming his elbow against the door and firing the gun. The officer said he collapsed and "started throwing my guts up crying because I knew I had shot somebody that didn't have no reason to be shot."

Steven Dons -- Oregon

Dons, 37, "committed suicide" while in a medical facilty run by the State. He had been the victim of an unlawful raid by the Portland Oregon Police Department over the heinous crime of "maybe" having had marijuana in the house he was staying in.

Dons was not a mild mannered customer. When the police kicked down his door without a warrant, he responed in a way appropriate for the situation. Using a rifle, he killed police officer Colleen Waibel and seriously wounded two other officers. The tragic results of a raid on a citizen who understood the Second and Fourth Amendments.

Patrick Dorismond -- New York

Juan Mendoza Fernandez -- Texas

A 60-year-old man shot and killed by Irving, Texas police serving narcotics search and arrest warrants at his West Dallas home thought officers were burglars trying to force their way inside, members of his family said. He and his wife had been married about 36 years and had four children and 13 grandchildren.

Curt Ferryman -- Florida

The fatal shooting of unarmed drug dealer Curt Ferryman in a botched sting in Jacksonville was "negligent and unnecessary," but not flagrant enough to warrant criminal prosecution against the federal agent who shot the man, according to State Attorney Harry Shorstein. The August 14, 2000 raid of Ferryman was "poorly planned and poorly executed." Shorstein later admitted that "under Florida law, the killing of Curt Ferryman was excusable homicide."

30-year-old Christopher Sean Martin of the Drug Enforcement Administration accidentally shot Ferryman when the agent knocked on the window of a parked vehicle occupied by the 24-year-old Ferryman.

Ramon Gallardo -- California

Gallardo was shot 15 times by a SWAT team with a warrant for his son in Dinuba, California in 1997.

Ralph Garrison -- New Mexico

Ralph Garrison, 69, a video store owner, lived in downtown Albuquerque. In a lifetime of owning small businesses, he put away enough to buy a second house next door, which he rented out. Before sunrise on Monday, December 16, 1996, Ralph Garrison awakened to hear the sounds of someone breaking into his rental property next door. His tenants apparently were not at home.

Garrison went outside to ask who these people were and what they were doing. The men -- dressed in black with no visible identifying marks, wearing black "balaclava" hoods which may have been pulled down to conceal their faces, shined lights in his eyes, brandished rifles and yelled at him to get back in his house. Ralph Garrison called 911. But 911 had already arrived.

Police reported that police officer H. Neal Terry and county deputies James Monteith and Erik Little -- displaying no badges, dressed in unmarked dark SWAT gear, and possibly wearing their black hoods pulled down over their faces -- saw Garrison come to his back door with a gun in one hand and a cellular phone in the other. All three officers opened fire with their AR-15 assault rifles, discharging at least 12 rounds. Police Chief Joe Polisar and County Sheriff Joe Bowdich said they believe the officers shot Garrison in accordance with departmental policies.

John P. Graham -- Wisconsin

When Graham, 49, refused to get out of his truck and resisted during an on-site interrogation, he was handcuffed by Sauk-Prairie police officer John Mueller and ordered to remain face down on his driveway. Graham was then shot twice in the back of the head by Mueller with his police revolver. The incident occurred September 16, 1986.

Willie Heard -- Kansas

In the town of Osawatomie, Kansas (pop. 4,500), Willie Heard, a forty-six year-old man, was shot to death in his bedroom at 1:30 AM by police who had stormed into the home to execute a search warrant. Heard's sixteen year-old daughter claims that the officers failed to identify themselves other than to shout "freeze!" and "get down!" The police, after kicking in the front door, entered the bedroom and came upon Mr. Heard clutching his twenty-two caliber rifle. They shot. He died.

The warrant said that the police were to search for crack cocaine and related items. None was found. A probe is underway by the Kansas Bureau of Investigation to determine whether police acted improperly in killing Mr. Heard.

John Hirko -- Pennsylvania

A masked ninja style 'drug task force' squad of police officers gunned down an unarmed drug suspect in his own home in Bethlehem in April, 1996, in what the coroner subsequently ruled a homicide. The cops also set fire to the house, incinerating the body, but claimed to have miraculously retrieved the drugs for which they had a search warrant.

Raul Huartado -- Indiana

Gary police officer James Ervin, 30, is accused of using his position as a nine-year veteran on the Gary Police Department to take part in racketeering, homicide, and illicit drug distribution from at least the summer of 1998 through August, 1999. Ervin killed or counseled the killing of Raul Huartado and Gil Nevarez on November 19, 1998, as part of a plot to extort more than 5 kilograms of cocaine from the victims.

Joey Kessinger -- Tennessee

A tangle between the police and the suspect occurred regarding the illegal sale of drugs in July, 2001. According to the medical examiner's report, Kessinger had two gunshot wounds to the left wrist and four gunshot wounds on the back of his body.

Bruce Lavoie -- New Hampshire

On August 3, 1989, Lavoie lay peacefully sleeping in the room he shared with his young son in the village of Hudson.

At 5:00 AM he was awakened by a loud noise as his whole home was shaken violently. A battering ram had smashed his front door and a dark band of armed men rushed into his small apartment. Rising to defend his son, Lavoie was shot to death as his little boy watched helplessly. Officers found one cannabis cigarette butt.

Ronald Loop -- New Jersey

Age 25 at time of death on March 11, 1988 in Brick Township. Suspected of marijuana dealing, Loop had just picked up a Federal Express package that contained 10 pounds of marijuana. He was unarmed and was shot as he fled from police outside his home.

Ismael Mena -- Colorado

Kirk Massie -- Oklahoma

Officers shot and killed an armed Sparks man hiding in his bathroom one Tuesday morning in mid-2001 as a search warrant was served at his home.

Kirk Massie, 49, was armed with a double-barrel shotgun when agents entered his Lincoln County home at 7:50 AM to serve a warrant for methamphetamine. Massie operated a meth. lab in a bunker on the property. His life was taken because of it.

Pedro Oregon Navarro -- Texas

Acting on an informant's tip, members of the Houston Police Department gang taskforce stormed into an apartment last month they believed illegal drugs were being sold. When the man who lived there locked himself inside his bedroom, the officers kicked in the door and began firing.

Thirty-three bullets later, 23 year-old Pedro Oregon Navarro was dead, shot a dozen times, including nine times in the back. But the investigation in the wake of the fatal shooting shows the officers had no warrant, the informant was not registered with the police as required by Department rules covering drug informants, police found no drugs in Mr. Oregon's apartment and a gun officers said Mr. Oregon had pointed at them never was fired.

"They went knowingly and consciously in search of their own heroics and forgot to abide by the rules," says Tony Cantu, a hispanic activist in Houston. "The bottom line is they shot an innocent young man in the back after in illegal entry," Mr. Dovalina said.

Gil Nevarez -- Indiana

Gary, Indiana police officer James Ervin, 30, is accused of using his position as a nine-year veteran on the Gary Police Department to take part in racketeering, homicide and illicit drug distribution from at least the summer of 1998 through August 1999. Ervin killed or counseled the killing of Raul Huartado and Gil Nevarez on November 19, 1998, as part of a plot to extort more than 5 kilograms of cocaine from the victims.

Mario Paz -- California

A 69 year old grandfather died a brutal death at the hands of police looking for marijuana on August 9, 1999. No drugs were found.

It was an hour before midnight when an El Monte police SWAT team, serving a search warrant as part of a broad-ranging narcotics investigation, undertook what it called the "high-risk entry" of a Compton home -- shooting the locks off the front and back doors. Their warrant, which named no one specifically in the Paz home, says police expected to find marijuana and cash belonging to a suspected member of a drug ring who had allegedly used the house as a mail drop.

They found no drugs, but in the course of the search they shot a retired grandfather twice in the back -- killing him. The widow was hustled out of the house in nothing but panties, a towel, and plastic handcuffs. She and six others were later taken away and intensively interrogated, but no one was charged. Ten thousand dollars in cash was seized as evidence, along with a .22- caliber rifle and three pistols, according to investigators for the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. The family said that the money was patriarch Mario Paz's life savings and that he kept firearms for protection in the high-crime neighborhood.

Robert Lee Peters -- Florida

Age 33 at time of death in St. Petersburg in July, 1994. Deputies did not identify themselves before breaking into the house as the family prepared to watch a movie. Friends and relatives say Peters may have mistaken them for burglars. Deputies did not know there were two children and his ailing stepfather (who had a heart attack after the shoot-out) in the house at the time of the no-knock raid.

The police tried to smash through the front door with a battering ram. Peters fired a .357 magnum through the door and was struck three times by the SWAT team. Two pounds of marijuana were confiscated from his home. Records indicate that a confidential informant bought 7.3 grams of marijuana. An undercover detective purchased 27 grams. His brother George was charged and did not resist arrest. George said his brother wouldn't have resisted either, had he known they were deputies. "All they had to do," he said, "was knock on the door."

Manuel Medina Ramirez -- California

When Ramirez, a 63-year-old retired golf-course groundskeeper, was routed from his slumber at 2:00 AM by armed men breaking down the door of his modest Stockton home, he instinctively reached for his bedside pistol. Shooting into the darkness, he brought one of the men down; the others returned fire, and Ramirez was shot dead in front of his son and daughter, who had also been awakened.

The armed men turned out to be a Stockton police anti-drug team who had obtained a warrant for the house after a friend of the Ramirez family was found with marijuana in his car and gave the police the Ramirez address as his own.

The officers claim they had identified themselves, but the Ramirez daughter says her father spoke poor English and couldn't understand them. No drugs were found in the house. "These were very quiet people," said a neighbor. "I never saw anything going on that could indicate drugs at all."

Donald Scott -- California

Michael Swimmer -- Georgia

While Swimmer stood naked by his own bed, drug warrior police burst through his front door and riddled his bedroom with machine gun fire. Swimmer was shot ten times and died a few hours later.

The authorities all agreed killing Swimmer, who had no police record, was just fine because an unidentified informant said that he had 368 tablets of ecstasy.
Rev. Accelyne Williams -- Massachusetts

Retired Methodist minister Accelyne Williams was chased around his Boston apartment by members of a police team looking for drugs and guns when he collapsed and died of a heart attack at the age of 75.

Acting on a tip by an informant, the police conducted a no-knock raid. No guns or drugs were found, as it was soon discovered they raided the wrong apartment.

George Timothy Williams -- Idaho

Officer Phillip Anderson, 23, and his partner, Cpl. James Moulson, 30, were killed in the shootout at the Eden home of George Timothy Williams the night of January 3, 2001 while attempting to serve a search warrant for illegal drugs at Williams' home. Williams, 47, a suspected drug dealer, was also killed during the fight. About four grams of marijuana were found in Williams' home after the raid.

Rusty Windell -- Texas


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: braindamage
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To: fight_truth_decay
Thanks!
261 posted on 09/04/2002 2:11:02 AM PDT by SkyRat
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To: ClancyJ
Socialists? I'm a socialist? So, any person not agreeing to free drug use is a socialist?

First, you do agree with drug use. Or do you suggest that we prohibit alcohol again? No? But alcohol is a drug. Doublespeak.

And yes I think you are a socalist. To qoute you:

This society needs productive healthy people - not dopeheads draining society.

So you want a society of productive healthy (not free?) people. This alone would mean nothing. But you are in favor for hunting down everyone who doesnt fit into your view of the perfect society.

And don't give me the drugs are dangerous crap. Alcohol is a dangerous drug but you have no problem allowing that. No, only the other drugs are bad for society, right?

Individual responsibility, Individual rights. Not the rights of society.

No, I would suppose you are one.

Now, what a clever tactic.

You want the society to care for you so you can have no responsibility for yourself or your loved ones.

No, I'm for Indivudual responsibility. I don't want society taking care of my problems or the problems of others. You are the one who want's the society to filter out the "bad" drug users. Not the "good" legal drugs, of course.

You want the freedom to become an addict spending all your energy seeking the next fix. No work, no worry, no job to keep, no family to bother with - only seeking the next "relaxation", the next smoke, the next hit. Such luxury. Addiction is pure joy as long as you can keep the drugs flowing.

Rant away

Funny, how sensitive those in the drug culture get when talking about taking away their weed, their hit. They get absolutely mad. You see, it has become more important to them than their jobs, their future, their children, their spouses. They are in bliss - although it is only a chemical thing - but bliss is bliss.

Ad hominem are the last resort of the ignorant.
262 posted on 09/04/2002 2:22:21 AM PDT by SkyRat
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To: ClancyJ
Life, faculties, production--in other words, individuality, liberty, property -- this is man. And in spite of the cunning of artful political leaders, these three gifts from God precede all human legislation, and are superior to it.

----------

What, then, is law? It is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense.

----------

Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education, and morality throughout the nation. This is the seductive lure of socialism. And I repeat again: These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the same time be free and not free.


"The Law" by by Frederick Bastiat. Read it here
263 posted on 09/04/2002 2:33:06 AM PDT by SkyRat
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To: ClancyJ
Maybe I wrote too much already but I just noticed something your wrote

The fact that people have a drink does not justify drug use.

Let's analyze that statement. What means having a drink? In that context, it means "to consum alcohol". Since alcohol, as I told you for several times now, is a drug we can replace "to consum alcohol" with "drug use"

So your statment should read:

The fact that people use drugs does not justify drug use

Perfect doublespeak. Orwell would be proud of you.
264 posted on 09/04/2002 2:43:55 AM PDT by SkyRat
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To: ClancyJ
I really should let exodus answer your post 257. But we are in the smokey backroom afterall.

Exodus wrote:

When the effects of the drug wear off, the public is no longer in danger

Your reply:

You are correct...

You agree that when the effects are gone, there is no danger. But if we read on:

and it would appear there would be no problem. However, we have found otherwise. Why would a person be so dumb as to take drugs on the weekend before returning to the offshore oil rig?

Do you drink beer on the weekend before you return to the offshore oil ring?

It takes a bit of time for the drugs to leave their system.

The effects are long gone. Or do you really belive pot stays active for 4 to 6 weeks?

What get's found is just the waste products. So, while alcohol can be taken a weekend before and probably won't show up, pot will show up. But it won't be active anymore. So although both, the alcohol and the pot user, do the same, the penalty are different. Fair game?

Even though they may have similar names, the psychoactive THC (Delta-9-THC) is different from the metabolites (for instance, 11-OH-THC and 11-nor) that your body breaks it down into in that the latter will not get you stoned. It is the metabolites that stay in your fatty cells and show up on drug tests. Your body is depleted of Delta-9-THC only hours after ingestion.
265 posted on 09/04/2002 3:24:33 AM PDT by SkyRat
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To: exodus
Hey my man, I'm with you. But I do stand by my contention that Aguilar was a dumbass who got what he asked for.
266 posted on 09/04/2002 6:42:32 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Reagan Man
Thank You for the JR quote ... let me give you another

To: Kevin Curry What if you are pro Constitution and anti drugs like me? Am I a Clinton ally and a vile enemy of freedom in your eyes? I do not favor or advocate the use of drugs, but I am definitely opposed to the drug war. The Constitution does not delegate power to the federal government to wage war against the people. The drug war is being used as an excuse to allow the government to destroy the last remnants of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Once these are gone, the socialists will be free to do with us what they will. IMHO, those who believe in America and in Liberty should be opposed to the unconstitutional war on drugs. 27 Posted on 05/30/2001 12:29:18 PDT by Jim Robinson [ Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | Top | Last ]

267 posted on 09/04/2002 7:48:14 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: clamper1797
well, i hope that settles that , now ........ lets all get stoned !!!!!!!!
268 posted on 09/04/2002 8:13:03 AM PDT by gdc61
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To: exodus
I am a Yankee..;)and an American
269 posted on 09/04/2002 9:11:04 AM PDT by fight_truth_decay
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To: exodus
That is one of the most prevalent misconceptions about our Constitution today.

The Constitution does not say what citizens are "allowed" to do. The Constitution says what the government is allowed to do.


Thank you exodus. I was going to say exactly the same thing.
270 posted on 09/04/2002 9:24:50 AM PDT by jenny65
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To: clamper1797
>>>The drug war is being used as an excuse to allow the government to destroy the last remnants of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
IMHO, those who believe in America and in Liberty should be opposed to the unconstitutional war on drugs.<<<

Jim Robinson is entitled to his opinion and so am I.

I believe in America and I fully support the federal governments National Drug Control Policy. I'm a conservative Republican. There are many conservative Republican's who've been elected to serve in Congress, many others have been chosen to be part of the conservative Bush administartion and there are still others who work for the federal government in many different capacities. These conservatives aren't using America's National Drug Control Policy, to destroy the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. That's ridiculous. There are some anti-Americans in this country, who would enjoy seeing America wiped off the face of the Earth. No doubt about it. Many of these are liberals, socialists and other political militants.

It would appear, this remark of JR`s, was made in response to something KC posted. On this subject matter relating to America's National Drug Control Policy, I happen to agree with Kevin Curry and not with Jim Robinson. It's warranted, legal and Constitutional. However, lets not forget, JimRob doesn't support the legalization of drugs either.

271 posted on 09/04/2002 5:54:12 PM PDT by Reagan Man
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To: Jeff Head
I see your points and mostly I agree with them. However, what do we do to protect people for the harm of the drug culture? We cannot just sit back and say "You know - wish we could help you but those people have a right to sell drugs and have a crack house in your neighborhood. The fact that sometimes there are gunshots is out of our control."

What do we do to protect the children mistreated by the drug using parents? Do we just avoid looking at them and leave them to their lives rather than "INFRINGE" on a drug taking parent? I'm afraid when we go down this road - soon we are giving all rights to those in our society who choose to ignore their responsibilities and deny that they are negligent in their own treatment of others while we allow the innocents to continue being harmed. What about their rights? Just because they don't want to do drugs does not mean they have no rights?

Maybe they get tired of the abuse from a parent who is drugged and denies any mistreatment when confronted. Maybe those losing loved ones in hit and run accidents have rights other than drinking or drugging. Maybe they have a right to expect people to be people while driving - not drunks or druggies.

Your theories are fine and represent the ideal. However, as we all know the drug culture is about personal enjoyment - even to overstepping their boundaries and infringing on the rights of others. They care not because you see - they are drugged and know nothing.

I don't support ignoring the abuses from these people CHOOSING to turn their control of themselves over to a chemical for the freedom of responsibility for their actions and escape. If they want the freedom to drug themselves blind - let them go where they will harm no one. Let them pay for babysitters to feed their children supper and bath them. Let them stay out of cars. Let them pay for all treatment their addiction costs.

I will not pay for them to ignore their responsibilities and I am having to pay every time I buy a product, every time I buy gas, every time I use a service. They are infringing on my rights every day.

272 posted on 09/04/2002 11:58:27 PM PDT by ClancyJ
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To: JediGirl
You go, girl.

I have a friend who got busted for growing eight marijuana plants in her back yard. They picked her up using a $10,000,000 CAMP heliocopter that was flying overhead.

The next thing she knew, she was face down on her floor in hand-cuffs. Twelve swat team people were in her house in full riot gear, complete with automatic guns that were drawn.

This makes sense?

273 posted on 09/05/2002 12:08:25 AM PDT by The Other Harry
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To: SkyRat
Ad hominem are the last resort of the ignorant

Me ignorant? I'm not the one begging everyone to let me take drugs please.......

I'm not the one who sees nothing wrong with allowing my entertainment to cost all Americans their hard earned cash for the increased cost by companies to control the damage done by those whose "entertainment" leads them to be unable to function.

I'm the one who will not allow alcohol or drugs or pot get control of my life. I will not allow it the chance because I'm not stupid enough to think that all other people that are addicted got that way from some unknown disease. I look at facts, I weigh the risk, I judge if I need alcohol. I don't have to judge if I need drugs because I will never take the first one - I don't see any fun in it. I don't see any gain from it.

It is disgusting. I frankly don't enjoy making a fool of myself. I like control of my actions.

If that is ignorance - I'm gladly ignorant.

By the way - remember - that exalted sense of your intelligence is probably a side effect of a chemical.

274 posted on 09/05/2002 12:09:05 AM PDT by ClancyJ
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To: JediGirl
You go, girl.

I have a friend who got busted for growing eight marijuana plants in her back yard. They picked her up using a $10,000,000 CAMP heliocopter that was flying overhead.

The next thing she knew, she was face down on her floor in hand-cuffs. Twelve swat team people were in her house in full riot gear, complete with automatic guns that were drawn.

This makes sense?

275 posted on 09/05/2002 12:10:41 AM PDT by The Other Harry
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To: The Other Harry
Please excuse the hiccups...
276 posted on 09/05/2002 12:14:25 AM PDT by The Other Harry
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To: SkyRat
Read back over your comments to me. Notice how you tie your drug use into alcohol? Such a lame excuse. I will not even bother to discuss it.

If you can't see the difference in people that consume drinks at a level consistent with their ability to handle them, and those that take chemicals known to be addictive thinking that - in their case - it will not be addictive, you must already be addicted - your thinking is clouded.

A person that is addicted to alcohol is the same as a drug addict. Not all people get addicted to alcohol and one can quickly learn is they have the tendency to "need" alcohol. They then avoid it like the plague - they don't take it thinking addiction won't happen. If they do and get addicted - they are addicts same as drug addicts.

Now cocaine and the hard drugs are addictive. How many that take these drugs don't continue taking them? They find all excuses why it is ok - just like alcoholics - but that does not change the fact that it is addictive and they will become addicted.

No chemical presents such pleasure that a person will gamble their future on being able to play around with it. The draw to have it again is the addiction at work sucking them in. Even if some quit the drugs and go on with their lives - the drugs do have an effect on them and no one knows what has been damaged. Why would any person be willing to take something that can damage their brain for the rest of their lives.

I don't see extremely happy people taking drugs. I see misery, loss of jobs, loss of respect. I see a sellout of their future for peer pressure, for being "cool". I see families mistreated because of their sellout - if only in the waste of money that could be used better.

Anyway - I don't care what people do - but I care when it infringes on my life and that is the problem. I don't care to pay for your irresponsibility, ignorance and your sellout. I expect more from you and the others travelling this road.

And finally - I am not getting into the discussion on pot. IMHO this can be used without permanent harm BUT if a person will try pot - they will then move on and try a hard drug because all of the society forces are in place to push them there - their co-smokers, their friends, their pushers, their peer that pulled them into pot. They will try hard drugs too - so therefore it is a "gateway" chemical. IMHO I don't want to start that trip.

277 posted on 09/05/2002 12:29:49 AM PDT by ClancyJ
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Comment #278 Removed by Moderator

To: ClancyJ
Me ignorant?

I said those who attack a person instead of concentrating on the arguments are ignorant and fools, too.

I'm not the one begging everyone to let me take drugs please.......

Let's make this easy for you
Is alcohol a drug, yes or no?
Do you want to drink alcohol once in a while, yes or no?

I'm not the one who sees nothing wrong with allowing my entertainment to cost all Americans their hard earned cash for the increased cost by companies to control the damage done by those whose "entertainment" leads them to be unable to function.

So you support madatory alcohol tests for companies? Would you pass a test that could trace your alcohol consum for six weeks?

I'm the one who will not allow alcohol or drugs or pot get control of my life.

alcohol or drugs or pot? You know of couse, that all three are drugs? And I'm not the one to let drugs control my life, either.

I look at facts, I weigh the risk, I judge if I need alcohol. I don't have to judge if I need drugs because I will never take the first one - I don't see any fun in it. I don't see any gain from it.

Alcohol is a drug, do you copy me?

It is disgusting. I frankly don't enjoy making a fool of myself.

Not? Why do you keep up the pretense that your drug of choice ain't a drug?

Notice how you tie your drug use into alcohol?

Haha. No, I'm saying there is no difference between alcohol consum and drug use.

If you can't see the difference in people that consume drinks at a level consistent with their ability to handle them, and those that take chemicals known to be addictive thinking that - in their case - it will not be addictive, you must already be addicted - your thinking is clouded.

Are you pulling my leg? Do you know what you are writing?

Alcohol is a addictive chemical. Your own words:

A person that is addicted to alcohol is the same as a drug addict.

We notice you see there is a alcohol addiction. You even had a nice story how a alcoholic lost his job. But now comes your double standart again. Your own words:

"...and those that take chemicals known to be addictive thinking that - in their case - it will not be addictive, you must already be addicted - your thinking is clouded."

Now, what? Alcohol is a chemical. It destroys brain cells. People can become addictited to it.

By your own words, by your own logic, you must be already addicted, your thinking is clouded.

Alcohol, chemical formular and toxication

Of course, I don't think you are addicted. Just because you take something wich might get you into an addiction doesnt mean you are addicted. There is drug use and abuse. And it's you life, you ought to handle it.

But, this won't change your opinion one bit. For you there are 'good' drugs, the legal taxed ones. It does not matter to you, that the 'good' drug kills just like the bad ones. You won't complain over drunk drivers. Society has to carry the burden of the 'good' drugs, no matter how many get killed.

I won't stop you from your war on the bad drugs, no worry. You, as someone who only take the national approved taxed 'good' drugs, has every right to condem those 'bad' drug users. Have fun
279 posted on 09/05/2002 5:24:07 AM PDT by SkyRat
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To: ClancyJ
War on drugs". Hey, I don't get it because alcohol and cigarettes are drugs. So the war has definitely taken a cease fire here, hasn't it?

Alcohol and cigarettes kills more people than crack, coke and heroin - combined!

That's what I hate about the war on drugs. I'll be honest with ya. It's what I can't stand.
Is all day long we see those commercials: "Here's your brain, here's your brain on drugs.", "Just say 'No'!", "Why do you think they call it dope?".
And then the next commercial is ...
"This Bud's for youuuu..."
Com'on everybody, lets be hypocritical bastards. It's OK to drink your drug. We meant those other drugs, those untaxed drugs. Those are the ones that are bad for ya.
Nicotene, alcohol - good drugs. Coincidentally, tax drugs. Oh, how does this f***in' work?
Thank God they're taxing alcohol, Man, it means we got those good roads. We can get f***ed up and drive on. Thank God they're taxin' this shit, Man.
- Bill Hicks
280 posted on 09/05/2002 5:28:18 AM PDT by SkyRat
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