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Making Monkeys Out of Evolutionists
Salt Lake City Tribune ^ | August 28, 2002 | Cal Thomas

Posted on 08/28/2002 9:36:04 AM PDT by gdani

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To: Physicist
Laws are empirically observed relationships, whereas theories are conceptual models. The term "law" and "theory" refer only to how they are derived, and not to whether they are correct. Examples: the atomic theory of matter is known to be correct, but because it is a conceptual description of matter, it is and always will be a theory. Ampere's Law for electrical circuits is known to be incorrect (as the presence of a capacitor will show), but it is and always will be a law, because it is a statement of observed behavior.

Worth repeating. Another cigar for you.

301 posted on 08/28/2002 3:24:43 PM PDT by balrog666
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To: Dimensio
Everything in science is theory. Many creationists like to ignore that because it makes "evolution is only a theory" sound like a more meaningful statement.

This is basically BS. Evolution is not a theory in the same way as other areas of science, because all others that I'm aware of are based on repeatable experiments with measurable results which can be used to confirm or deny the theory.

302 posted on 08/28/2002 3:26:55 PM PDT by lasereye
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To: Doctor Stochastic
This is equally good evidence that Unkulunkulu created the world.

Or Cthulhu or (my favorite) a giant chicken named Harry from Pasdena. Have a cigar.

303 posted on 08/28/2002 3:27:28 PM PDT by balrog666
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To: gdani
Apologies to Cal Thomas but I have yet to find any scientific evidence that shows that woman was created from a man's rib, that it was possible to load at least two of all of the land-dwelling creatures on a large boat, that Adam & Eve were the first two humans, that the universe was created in 6 days, etc, etc.

Boy, pal, you completely missed the point of the article. Wow, did you ever.
304 posted on 08/28/2002 3:29:54 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: mlo
I'm interested to know how a theory can be state-mandated. Isn't that sorta anti-scientific in a way?
305 posted on 08/28/2002 3:30:29 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: dubyagee
You're right about that, but is that a reason to rule out a Creator?

No, but why postulate one if you don't need him in your explanation?

And no, I'm not familiar with Last Thursdayism, but I'm sure you'll fill me in, and I feel certain I'll be offended. ; * )

Last Thursdayism says that the Universe, and everything in it, was created last Thursday, along with our (false) memories of everything that happened prior to that.
It's also not falsifiable, just like your creator.

306 posted on 08/28/2002 3:31:15 PM PDT by BMCDA
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To: moneyrunner
Yes. Anyone who does not toe the party-line on evolution is a knuckle-dragging medieval heathen who thinks using leeches to suck blood is the epitome of medical technology. We also beat our wives too. Good lord.
307 posted on 08/28/2002 3:31:56 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
Good News For The Day

‘But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.’ (Matthew 6:33)

"Once there was a change in our family situation. Our pet dog passed away and we salved our grief by acquiring a new one-a blue cattle pup. He was intelligent and very mischievous. We had a lot of fun with him. while he was small, he would amuse us by trying to catch his own tail and bite it. He would spy the tip of his tail out of the corner of his eye, and, readying himself, lunge at it, as if hunting prey. But of course, the more he pounced, the more his tail moved out of his reach. The only way a dog can really have its tail is to allow it to be an attachment to its main body."

"The... tail comes along just fine---when it is not its owner's preoccupation."

"Jesus advises us that though there are many good and important things, only one can be most important-the kingdom of God and his righteousness. First things must come first. All of life, with its experiences, decisions and relationships, needs to be evaluated in light of the highest ideal."

"When God is given pride of place, the machinery of existence operates at its best."

308 posted on 08/28/2002 3:32:48 PM PDT by f.Christian
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To: Dimensio
Actually it's still apples and oranges. Alchemy and astrology have been succinctly dismissed. Chemistry and physics are pretty concrete (especially chemistry...physics is delving too much into quantum theory and 26-dimensional stuff to be on the same level as chemistry). Evolution is still purely a theory, and one that is controversial, somewhat new (as opposed to say, chemical equations for water and carbon dioxide), and under discussion. Not saying creationism is true, but when you are merely discussing theories, I think there's nothing wrong or unscientific about devoting a page in the textbook or the first 20 minutes of the lessons on evolutionary theory to alternate theories.

Merely talking about them does not equate with endorsement. Methinks the evolutionists just don't want a theory they don't like to be discussed. And IMO, it's because of the religious nature of it.
309 posted on 08/28/2002 3:38:57 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: r9etb
And who said that the discussion has to be purely scientific. I don't see the problem in devoting a small amount of time to discussing alternative creation models. In my high school textbook, the chapter about creation contained a few paragraphs about earlier ideas of creation, including myths (something about the infinite stacked turtles or something), and also included intelligent design and creationism.
310 posted on 08/28/2002 3:41:38 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Dimensio
Where do these life forms come from?

Typically they come from other life forms. If you are referring to the ultimate origin of life, that is not relevant to evolution. You also presented a false dichotomy of "evolution" or "God created the universe and all life within". Those are not the only two possibilities.

A fistful a cigars to you too.

311 posted on 08/28/2002 3:41:38 PM PDT by balrog666
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To: gdani
I dont see it as being taught as fact. I see it as educating students as to what other ideas are out there. Why does teaching "THis is what some folks believe...." equate to endorsement? I think that the atheists and evolutionists don't even want the smell of it in schools out of personal bias.
312 posted on 08/28/2002 3:43:10 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: BMCDA
Last Thursdayism says that the Universe, and everything in it, was created last Thursday, along with our (false) memories of everything that happened prior to that. It's also not falsifiable, just like your creator.

Sorry, but it's falsifiable by my reason and common sense. One cannot for a minute claim that that is as logical as the two choices for life: creation or accident. One of those choices will turn out to be true in the end.

313 posted on 08/28/2002 3:48:12 PM PDT by dubyagee
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Comment #314 Removed by Moderator

To: BMCDA
No, but why postulate one if you don't need him in your explanation?

Because if you're a bible believing Christian you know that he desires acknowledgment for his creation. That is not too much to ask considering he gave us life.

315 posted on 08/28/2002 3:54:47 PM PDT by dubyagee
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To: BMCDA
LOL!! Law of Conservation of Information - where did he get that form? I guess his dog never ate his homework when he was in highschool ;)

No homework needed; I think it's Dembski's own special contribution to the field.

316 posted on 08/28/2002 3:54:52 PM PDT by jennyp
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To: Impeach the Boy
If one is open minded enough to consider the posibility of a God who can create the universe, then getting a few animals onto a boat is no sweat for such a God.

Well, why does He need a boat at all then?

Secondly, if one believes there was not supreme intelligent force behind the creation of all matter, then one is left with the impossible task of trying to explain how something came from nothing.

Probably true, Big-Bang-Theory-wise. The first problem with your statement is "impossible" - we haven't established that. The second is presupposing "nothing". The third is assuming "intelligent".

317 posted on 08/28/2002 3:55:17 PM PDT by balrog666
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To: dubyagee
Are you saying that genetics shows that everything has progressed over time? That everything shows evidence of having gradually aged?

No, it has nothing to do with age, but with relationships. The notion of common descent (and this isn't limited to Darwinism; other models of evolution such as Lamarckism would predict this also) is that all creatures develop from previous forms. Sometimes this means that a species will change over time (confusion over this prompts children to ask adorable questions such as, "if man evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys"), but it also means that a species, separated into two or more non-interbreeding populations, can develop into two or more different (but closely related) species. It NEVER happens that a species has two or more independent "parent" species; the branching is always in the "downstream" direction. Exactly this sort of interrelatedness is evident when you compare the genomes of the world's species.

Butcouldn't it have been created that way? According to the Bible, Adam was a man, not a baby, at creation.

As you say, but if the world's species were created by fiat, there would be no particular reason to expect that their genomes could be arranged in such a tree. Furthermore, there'd be no reason to expect to see that arrangement reflected in the fossil record...and yet, it is reflected.

318 posted on 08/28/2002 3:56:42 PM PDT by Physicist
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To: balrog666
Well, why does He need a boat at all then?

A law is a law. If you're familiar with Christianity, you know that God is subject to His laws.

319 posted on 08/28/2002 3:57:46 PM PDT by dubyagee
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To: Physicist
Well, I don't call creationism in general a theory for exactly that reason. Specific creation models, such as the one in Genesis, can have testable consequences and thus may qualify as theories. (As it turns out, the Genesis model fails those tests rather badly, so shunning is required in that case.)

But evolution, by contrast, does have testable consequences, and it passes those tests brilliantly on two fronts: genetics and paleontology.

Furthermore, the fact that the phenomenon of evolution it isn't easily reproducible doesn't mean it can't be modelled (i.e., described by a theory). We can't reproduce a supernova or the big bang, either, but we have extremely quantitative models of both that can be tested through observation. In any case, the phenomenon of evolution is reproducible in principle if we simply observe long enough

Another great post. Have another cigar.

320 posted on 08/28/2002 4:01:04 PM PDT by balrog666
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