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To: DiogenesLamp; Bull Snipe; HandyDandy; rockrr
Bull Snipe: "Exactly how was the South paying 50%-80% of the Federal budget?"

DiogenesLamp: "Income Taxes, property taxes, Since I believe it was BroJoeK that came up with the 50% number, and since he is on your side, I will let him explain it to you.
This would be one of those "admissions against interest" and therefore you know it is likely to be the truth."

The Truth takes no sides & has no agenda.

The logic here is circuitous, to say the least, but it does work: the US Federal Government collected no taxes -- none -- on exports, so money from no crops grown in the South and sold overseas went directly into Federal coffers.

But the Federal Government did collect tariffs on imports, and indeed in 1860 this was it's largest (by far) source of income.
Import tariffs were mostly collected in major Northern ports like New York, Philadelphia & Boston.
But, so the argument goes: where did the money to pay for all imports come from?
Answer: from exports, of course, and the biggest exports were Southern agricultural products, most notably, cotton and tobacco.

The export numbers we have for 1860 vary depending on source, but it's pretty clear that cotton alone was at least 50% of total exports and tobacco another 5%.
This is how pro-Confederates (then & now) like to claim the war was "all about taxes" and how Lincoln could not live without revenues from Southern crops.

If the South refused to export, then there'd be no money to pay for imports and, correspondingly, no income for the Federal treasury.
That's why Lincoln started the war, so they claim.

Well, there are several points to make here:

  1. In early 1861 the Confederacy did stop exporting cotton, and it had no serious effect on Federal revenues.
    Once Congress acted, it found other revenue sources to more than replace Southern agricultural exports.

  2. Even in 1860, Southern agricultural products were not the United States' only exports.
    Eastern, Northern & Western products -- from fish & forestry to dairy, beef and manufactured goods -- made up at least a third to half of total US exports.

  3. The people who suffered most from Confederate embargo of cotton exports were Confederates themselves.
    Producing 5 million bales per year, worth circa $200 million, such revenues would have paid handsomely for a powerful Confederate army & navy, had they been realized before Civil War broke out.

As for the claim that "Lincoln started the Civil War", that's just stuff and nonsense.
In fact, the Confederacy for months provoked war, started war, formally declared war and sent military aid to pro-Confederates fighting in Union Missouri, all before a single Confederate soldier was killed directly in battle with any Union force, and before any Union army invaded a single Confederate state.

The best historical analogies are:


151 posted on 01/21/2016 5:17:03 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: BroJoeK

Thanks. Though I doubt our current leadership would respond with force if the Cubans decided to retake Gitmo.


159 posted on 01/21/2016 6:25:51 AM PST by Bull Snipe
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To: BroJoeK; PeaRidge
DiogenesLamp: "Income Taxes, property taxes, Since I believe it was BroJoeK that came up with the 50% number, and since he is on your side, I will let him explain it to you. This would be one of those "admissions against interest" and therefore you know it is likely to be the truth."

You have misquoted me here. I did not say "Income Taxes, property taxes," Somehow you've ran together a quote from someone else.

I did say "Since I believe it was BroJoeK that came up with the 50% number..." but I said nothing about where the revenue came from.

Import tariffs were mostly collected in major Northern ports like New York, Philadelphia & Boston.

Which is a DELIBERATELY MISLEADING thing to say. Since New York was by far the most active port, since virtually the entire shipping industry for the United States unloaded there, and since packet shipping carried all imported products from one American port to another, (Because there was a law forbidding foreign ships from doing it. Another example of how the FedGove favored the NorthEastern shipping interests. ) yes, New York collected the vast bulk of all the tariffs for imported products regardless of what was their eventual destination.

and the biggest exports were Southern agricultural products, most notably, cotton and tobacco.

And there is the money shot.

and how Lincoln could not live without revenues from Southern crops.

Slavery. The word you are looking for is "Slavery". Those crops were grown by slaves.

That's why Lincoln started the war, so they claim.

Incorrect. That is but one of the contributing factors as to why Lincoln started the war. He probably cared less about the losses to the Federal treasury than he did having all those New England businessmen on his @$$ for the loss of their revenues.

Eastern, Northern & Western products -- from fish & forestry to dairy, beef and manufactured goods -- made up at least a third to half of total US exports.

They could get all those things in Europe. They couldn't get much cotton or tobacco in Europe, and that's why the industry was so lucrative at the time.

As for the claim that "Lincoln started the Civil War", that's just stuff and nonsense. In fact, the Confederacy for months provoked war, started war, formally declared war and sent military aid to pro-Confederates fighting in Union Missouri, all before a single Confederate soldier was killed directly in battle with any Union force, and before any Union army invaded a single Confederate state.

Lincoln was planning to start the war back in December of 1960. Pea Ridge posted the letter to a Union General that Lincoln sent him before Lincoln ever assumed the powers of office.

In 1941, as FDR declared, a state of war with Japan began when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Likewise in 1861, a state of war began when Confederates assaulted Fort Sumter.

Because the loss of 3,000 men and the destruction of many billions of dollars worth of military assets and port facilities is exactly like blowing up some rock walls and killing no one.

When a man wants to beat his wife, a slap in the face is all the justification he needs to do it.

164 posted on 01/21/2016 7:14:24 AM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: BroJoeK; DiogenesLamp
Brojoke, you said:

The export numbers we have for 1860 vary depending on source.

There are only two sources...The United States Treasury and the Department of Commerce. Both tell the same story, a distinction but not a variance.

The exports from the US that bought taxable import goods in 1859 were worth $278,902,000 at the ports of exit from the US.

Of that amount, the value of Southern goods: cotton, tobacco, rice, naval stores, sugar, molasses, hemp, cotton manufactures (all originating in the South) was worth $198,309,000 (Statistical abstract of the US Commerce Dept., 1936 edition,pgs 435-439)

.... or about 71%.

Adams uses the figure of 87% which is the above amounts, plus the value of tariffs paid on overseas purchases made with cash by Southern governments and individuals.

182 posted on 01/21/2016 8:30:30 AM PST by PeaRidge
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