Posted on 03/10/2010 6:35:02 PM PST by Idabilly
The northern mind is a funny thing. Your “laughing” points out the incredible difference between our cultures.
Both cultures understand that there was segregation in the South...so it goes unsaid. Southerners have to point out that northerners were, and still are, segregationists, even as they pretend that it happens naturally. (And even as they pretend to hold some sort of moral high ground in the matter.) Meanwhile, people in the South live in mixed neighborhoods and have largely dealt with the its segregationist past.
Pointing out that there is segregation in the north is not funny, it is a necessity in such discussions. Laughing “when a Southerner ‘accuses’ the north of practicing segregation” demonstrates profoundly demonstrates the false position you have constructed so as to wrongly look down upon Southerners.
The Union, as it stands today, is very uncomfortable and unnatural. I guess it might be cultural also....
There wasn't much motivation for unarmed slaves to rebel during the war. Achieving freedom was much easier by simply running away to United States army lines, something hundreds of thousands of them did.
Can you back up that stat?
Thanks.
Of course he can’t. It’s not true.
a) a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires (i.e. consider obligatory) that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
b) Whenever (another conditional) any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends (i.e.the Ends being the previously stated securing of unalienable rights). But not to be changed for light and transient Causes.
c) They can right themselves (again referring to the previously stated securing of unalienable rights. Right themselves meaning the better securing of unalienable rights) by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed.
This argument is essentially the protection of natural right require separation.
You have argued that the converse (Separation requires a protection of natural rights) as premise is a bootless assertion. By which I assume you mean it is false. This is the argument of Marxists such as Lenin and Mao who premised there revolution on (inter alia) the denial of the right to own property; or the Taliban who intend to compel allegiance to their version of the Koran.
that secession as a right cannot be exercised in order to deny natural rights to others.
The DOI was a political statement not a mathematical treatise. There is no need to specify the truth of the converse, especially when the assertion that one has a natural right to deny the natural rights of others is so absurd (i.e. Inconsistent with reason or logic or common sense) I've made the argument that separation is a natural right but that it is conditional. The conditions are those that I've listed from the DOI.
I've also argued that slavery was the primary reason for southern secession. For which I've submitted secession resolutions from South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi and a speech in favor of the Alabama secession resolution.
Therefore I've argued that the DOI cannot properly be used is support of southern secession contra to the original article of this thread.
As Rustbucket noted Jefferson's original draft included the phrase:
He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither.
This is why I contend that Jefferson v. Lincoln is a false choice.
Even so, having said nothing in regards to the action taken by Lincoln, I've been branded a Lincoln worshiping yankee abortion loving obama supporter, who thinks all southerners are redneck hicks or some such nonsense. I guess the fact that my father, grandfather, great grandfather (confederate soldier and POW) great great grandfather (confederate soldier and POW) farmed cotton (with slaves) on the same piece of dirt in Monroe N.C. makes my sins worse.
I don't deny that there's de facto segregation in the north. There's de facto segregation in pretty much every city in the US. But if you're going to deny that there are predominately black neighborhoods in the south, you're delusional.
Laughing “when a Southerner ‘accuses’ the north of practicing segregation” demonstrates profoundly demonstrates the false position you have constructed so as to wrongly look down upon Southerners.
Just because it's funny that someone in a glass house starts throwing stones, it doesn't mean the other person doesn't live in a glass house, too. But I'll pick the historical record of my glass house over yours.
Ok true, your point is?
I find it interesting that a black Confederate soldier was depicted marching in rank with white Confederate soldiers on the Confederate monument at Arlington National Cemetery....given that you would have us believe that none served in the Confederacy.
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/csa-mem.htm
Note in the fifth foto the black soldier just right of center in the back part of the relief.
Dr. Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission, observed that Gen. “Stonewall” Jackson’s troops in occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: “Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army.”
Dr. Steiner, everybody knew he was a liar......
Here's a site dedicated to the USCT of the Union Army. It indicates that of the 175,000 to 200,000 black soldiers, upwards of 138,000 were runaways from the confederacy or the border states. I make no claims for it's accuracy and I warn you in advance that the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" clip that it plays is very annoying. Link
Feel free to post anything you have that indicates otherwise.
“Dragged kicking and screaming you mean.”
Nobody dragged me, kicking and screaming or otherwise, when I lived with black in a rural community in the 60s nor on the culdesac where I live today where there are seven black families and mine. Sadly profound ignorance and false stereotyping on your part.
“I don’t deny that there’s de facto segregation in the north. There’s de facto segregation in pretty much every city in the US. But if you’re going to deny that there are predominately black neighborhoods in the south, you’re delusional.”
I did not say that, nor does your statement have anything to do with my point.
“Just because it’s funny that someone in a glass house starts throwing stones, it doesn’t mean the other person doesn’t live in a glass house, too. But I’ll pick the historical record of my glass house over yours.”
It’s not a glass house when you admit up front that which is true, which is why you live in a glass house and I don’t...and why your laughing is misguided.
And can you point out where I said that please?
Dr. Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission, observed...
Feel free to give me your explanation of whatelse Steiner observed, from the sentence you didn't include in your quote, and take a stab at the questions I posed. It's all in reply 429.
“I make no claims for it’s accuracy...”
Then I will not bother.
Surprise, surprise.
My dear wife—I have no time for particulars. We have had a glorious time in this State. Unrestricted license to burn and plunder was the order of the day. The chivalry [meaning the Honourable & Chivalrous people of the South] have been stripped of most of their valuables. Gold watches, silver pitchers, cups, spoons, forks, &c., are as common in camp as blackberries.
The terms of plunder are as follows: Each company is required to exhibit the results of its operations at any given place—one-fifth and first choice falls to the share of the commander-in-chief and staff; one-fifth to the corps commanders and staff; one-fifth to field officers of regiments, and two-fifths to the company.
Officers are not allowed to join these expeditions without disguising themselves as privates. One of our corps commanders borrowed a suit of rough clothes from one of my men, and was successful in this place. He got a large quantity of silver (among other things an old-time milk pitcher) and a very fine gold watch from a Mrs DeSaussure, at this place. DeSaussure was one of the F. F. V.s of South Carolina, and was made to fork over liberally.. Officers over the rank of Captain are not made to put their plunder in the estimate for general distribution. This is very unfair, and for that reason, in order to protect themselves, subordinate officers and privates keep back every thing that they can carry about their persons, such as rings, earrings, breast pins, &c., of which, if I ever get home, I have about a quart. I am not joking—I have at least a quart of jewelry for you and all the girls, and some No. 1 diamond rings and pins among them.
General Sherman has silver and gold enough to start a bank. His share in gold watches alone at Columbia was two hundred and seventy-five. But I said I could not go into particulars. All the general officers and many besides had valuables of every description, down to embroidered ladies’ pocket handkerchiefs. I have my share of them, too. We took gold and silver enough from the damned rebels to have redeemed their infernal currency twice over. This, (the currency), whenever we came across it, we burned, as we considered it utterly worthless.
I wish all the jewelry this army has could be carried to the “Old Bay State”. It would deck her out in glorious style; but, alas! it will be scattered all over the North and Middle States. The damned niggers, as a general rule, prefer to stay at home, particularly after they found out that we only wanted the able-bodied men, (and to tell the truth, the youngest and best-looking women). Sometimes we took off whole families and plantations of niggers, by way of repaying secessionists. But the useless part of them we soon manage to lose; [one very effective was to “shoot at their bobbing heads as they swam rivers” after the army units crossed over], sometimes in crossing rivers, sometimes in other ways.
I shall write to you again from Wilmington, Goldsboro’, or some other place in North Carolina. The order to march has arrived, and I must close hurriedly. Love to grandmother and aunt Charlotte. Take care of yourself and children. Don't show this letter out of the family.
Your affectionate husband, Thomas J Myers, Lieut.,
P.S. I will send this by the first flag of truce to be mailed, unless I have an opportunity of sending it at Hilton Head. Tell Sallie I am saving a pearl bracelet and ear-rings for her; but Lambert got the necklace and breast pin of the same set. I am trying to trade him out of them. These were taken from the Misses Jamison, daughters of the President of the South Carolina Secession Convention. We found these on our trip through Georgia.”
The letter was addressed to Mrs. Thomas J. Myers, Boston, Massachusetts. end
There were 25,000 "contrabands" at Fort Monroe, Virginia alone.
War is hell.
The statue also shows a bare breasted woman with a shield leading the men. How many of those were there in the rebel army?
“The fact was patent, and rather interesting when considered in connection with the horror rebels express at the suggestion of black soldiers being employed for the national defense.”
That’s easy. The man is obviously incredulous because, just like you, he made a false presumption and was amazed that the reality was the direct opposite of his false belief.
“If black soldiers were included in combat positions with rebel regiments, then why the horror at the idea of black Union soldiers?”
As with almost everything associated with the War Between the States you can find quotes that support both views. Rebels who were horrified at the thought and those who petitioned for it.”
[Confederate General John B. Gordon (Army of Northern Virginia) reported that all of his troops were in favor of Colored troops and that it’s adoption would have “greatly encouraged the army”. Gen. Lee was anxious to receive regiments of black soldiers. The Richmond Sentinel reported on 24 Mar 1864, “None…will deny that our servants are more worthy of respect than the motley hordes which come against us.” “Bad faith [to black Confederates] must be avoided as an indelible dishonor.” ]
From: http://www.footnote.com/page/1201_confederate_african_americanscivil_war/
“If blacks were respected members of the rebel army then why did they, time after time, refuse to take blacks as prisoners but instead shot them when they tried to surrender?”
“The idea of black combat soldiers was an anathema for the rebel soldier - and their leadership - up until the very end.”
I think if you insert the work “Union” before the word “combat” it becomes easier to understand.
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