Replies

That’s why I myself tend not to buy into the charge that Bush and others blatantly lied us into this war. I think they believed most of what they claimed. You should probably put believe in quotes, because it amounts to talking yourself into it. They believed that American omnipotence, as well as know-how and determination, could imprint democracy on Iraq. They really believed that, once they succeeded in Iraq, a whole host of ancillary benefits were going to ensue, transforming the political landscape of the Middle East. All of those expectations were bizarre delusions and we’re paying the consequences now.

My response to that is to ask why he believes it is a bizarre delusion? Germany and Japan were rebuilt successfully after WWII and the USA has reaped tremendous benefits. Is there something specific about the Middle East - and Islam - that prevents those societies from being reformed and transformed? Is that the point that Bacevich is unknowingly making? The problem isn't that we tried to transform Iraq, it is that you can't transform a corrupt culture unless you utterly destroy it first, which is exactly what happened to Germany and Japan. In Iraq we have tried to build on a corrupt, militaristic, violent, and backwards culture.

“Is there something specific about the Middle East - and Islam - that prevents those societies from being reformed and transformed?”

Duh..... It’s called Islam. You can’t transform an Islamic society into a modern, free and democratic society because Islam mandates adherence to a ancient tribal society thousands of years old. The only way to transform the middle east is to ban Islam.

“The problem isn’t that we tried to transform Iraq, it is that you can’t transform a corrupt culture unless you utterly destroy it first, which is exactly what happened to Germany and Japan.”

We didn’t utterly destroy Germany and Japan. The difference is Fascism is an ideology of the elite. We killed the elite and anyone else willing to fight to the death for Fascism and once we had done that, everyone else in Germany and Japan were willing to get on with their lives. They didn’t care that they were no longer living under a Fascist leadership.

Can’t do that in the Middle East. Islam is an ideology of the masses. Everyone in the middle east is willing to fight to the death for Islam. In that respect it is a much more deadly ideology than fascism. Islam is more like Communism.

Tremendous post.

In effect, that we can’t is the exception that proves the rule, and makes a case for something much more singular with respect to the role Islam has played, not just recently, but going all the way back to 670 AD.

“My response to that is to ask why he believes it is a bizarre delusion? Germany and Japan were rebuilt successfully after WWII and the USA has reaped tremendous benefits.”

If you truly don’t understand there’s a huge difference, then it’s obvious you know little about the Mideast. Not only is much of it more backwards than Germany and Japan were, but the way they think about most everything is just alien to us. Even the countries there that are considered “democracies” or more modern, are completely different from our view of things.

Germany and Japan were rebuilt successfully after WWII and the USA has reaped tremendous benefits.

And this country is neither.

Is there something specific about the Middle East - and Islam - that prevents those societies from being reformed and transformed?

Absolutely, 100%, yes.

Iraqis are Muslim. Freedom, self-determination and Islam are completely incompatible. But, the leadership of the country believe that the ol' Red, White, and Blue and a few Soldiers can completely change the entire identity of a culture in a few years. Sure...I got a bridge for you, too, if you believe that...