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To: lqclamar
In zimdog's fantasy world, German Christian enlistees in Hitler's army are simply a tool of moral equivalency with which he hopes to counteract a fact that he would rather not admit or acknowledge. That fact is that Hitler and Himmler personally befriended one of the highest ranking muslim clerics in the world, enlisted his help in exterminating the Jews, and used his network of thousands of other nazi-sympathizing imams to raise all-muslim Waffen-SS units in the service of the Reich.

I am showing the weakness of your logic. You claim that the existence of 21,000 Muslim troops in the SS proves that Muslims = Nazis, but you find it absurd when I that same "logic" is applied to the millions of Christian troops in the German army.

Nevermind that most Muslims opposed the Nazis.

Nevermind that most nazi leaders practiced pagan occultist beliefs rather than Islam.

Nevermind the, what was it again, 180,000 West African Muslim troops who enlisted to fight the Nazis.

For you an SS division of Muslims is all you need to believe that all Muslims or all Balkan Muslims supported the Nazis. However, 37 SS divisions of Christians is not sufficient.

I'll admit, frankly, that your argument against this strawman is sound. Unfortunately for you, the strawman is entirely of your own construction.

And PS -- there is no global ranking of Sunni clerics.

63 posted on 02/16/2007 11:40:22 AM PST by zimdog
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To: eleni121
Zim's illogical attempts at moral equivalency continue...

Nevermind that most Muslims opposed the Nazis.

Wrong. The nazis were supported by organized imam-sanctioned muslim troop units. Some muslims individually sided with the Serbs, yet they produced no comparable organized muslim opposition to the nazis.

Nevermind that most nazi leaders practiced pagan occultist beliefs rather than Islam.

...more intentional misdirection. Hitler himself, though an occultist, personally sympathized with islam while publicly detesting Christianity. Thus came Hitler's statement comparing the two religions: "I can imagine people being enthusiastic about the paradise of Mahomet, but as for the insipid paradise of the Christians! In your lifetime, you used to hear the music of Richard Wagner. After your death, it will be nothing but hallelujahs, the waving of palms, children of an age for the feeding-bottle, and hoary old men. The man of the isles pays homage to the forces of nature. But Christianity is an invention of sick brains."

Nevermind the, what was it again, 180,000 West African Muslim troops who enlisted to fight the Nazis.

...the above is an unsourced claim he has been making for some time about French colonial troops from Africa. Every time he has been asked for specific sources on his numbers they have either been less than reputable or evasive. Of course this figure, even if accepted, (1) has nothing to do with the Balkans, (2) fought on the war's periphery as opposed to the middle of Europe, (3) did not enlist as exclusively muslim units, (4) did not enlist with the sanction of one of the highest ranking muslim clerics in the world, and (5) did not consistently support the allies, as most of the predominantly muslim colonies of France were loyal to the nazi-supporting Vichy regime for the first half of the war.

For you an SS division of Muslims is all you need to believe that all Muslims or all Balkan Muslims supported the Nazis. However, 37 SS divisions of Christians is not sufficient.

...more diversion by moral equivalency. Of course even here he is being deceptive as those 37 divisions were not explicitly Christian. He simply assumes that since they were Germans, they were also Christians when in fact many of them are known to have been either atheist or nordic occultists like Hitler himself. By contrast, the 13th Waffen was an explictly muslim unit that displayed an Islamic crescent scimitar on its banner and was publicly sanctioned by the islamic clergy.

72 posted on 02/16/2007 12:00:04 PM PST by lqclamar ("That's it, Seth, you can't blame them. It's want of education. That's all it is.")
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To: zimdog
"You claim that the existence of 21,000 Muslim troops in the SS proves that Muslims = Nazis, but you find it absurd when I that same "logic" is applied to the millions of Christian troops in the German army."
In the first place "army" did not equate to "SS".
In the second; This entire thread addresses Croatia/Albania/Serbia and NOT all of Europe and Russia where those millions of Germans, mostly not Nazis, were assigned. The 13th SS was never intended to serve outside of its own neighborhood and probably would not have done so.

" Nevermind that most Muslims opposed the Nazis."
That assertion is not worth addressing because it just ain't true.

" Nevermind the, what was it again, 180,000 West African Muslim troops who enlisted to fight the Nazis."
The French Legion and a great many African troops did fight for DeGaulle. Just where do you find any other likely muslims enlisting in great numbers other than those in service to Jordan (and later engaged against israel) or some other pre-existing British construct?

More than 2000 dead might reflect anything from attrition over a fairly long period, to an intense battle, to a relative massacare. Such a number would not fall far outside any bell curve in any war. The massacare you and the media refer to is:
Not only not proven but disproven.
Still used continualy as justification and still inflated to epic numbers which, again, have been disproven.
Even so "A Massacare" does not prove "Ethnic Cleansing". Ethnic cleansing before Clinton was characterized by rampant immigration from Albania and into Kosovo, creating a muslim majority in what Serbs considered their heartland. Since Clinton, ethnic cleansing has been blatant, widespread, and entirely muslim on Christian/Albanian on Serb.

Finally, are you a Monty Python fan?
Your debate style contributed to one of my favorite Python sketches...

112 posted on 02/16/2007 1:32:20 PM PST by norton
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