Posted on 12/15/2006 7:22:32 PM PST by FarRockaway
To: The Republican Party
I am a Christian conservative or social conservative. I am Pro-Life. I vote.
Rudy Giuliani is pro-gay, pro-gun control, and pro-abortion.
For these reasons and others, I state very firmly that I will not vote for Rudy Giuliani for President of the United States under any circumstances.
Senator John McCain has waffled on human cloning, has supported experimentation on human embryos, and has attacked prominent Christian clergy because of the, "evil influence that they exercise." John McCain has said of Pro-Life voters, on a public broadcast radio show, that they are, "otherwise intelligent people who say that that's the only issue that will determine their vote." McCain told the San Francisco Chronicle, "I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade."
For these reasons and others, I state very firmly that I will not vote for John McCain for President of the United States under any circumstances.
Sincerely,
Good night my friend....pleasant dreams!
Yes. And I DO understand how people feel about it. Some of their beliefs are very foreign.
But if Romney is on the ticket..........they best get over it quick!
Gotta get some sleep. Great talking with you and everyone else. (even Star Traveler!)
Get back to us when you can back up your statements. When you make an absolute claim - like you have - that *all* people of certain belief agree with you - *you* need to back that up. The rest of us can see how adolescent it is to make that kind of claim in the first place.
Have you personally spoken to all churches and theologians in the United States? :-) And do you have their permission to speak for them? :-)
You said -- "Well, er, uh, then the Southern Baptist Convention must be a cult too!"
Well, you might get some atheist to go along with that... I don't know...
Regards,
Star Traveler
I have stated that Methodists do NOT ( and they didn't 50 years ago, either ) consider Mormonism to be a cult. Others have done searches and neither do the Presbyterians ( please use the link that WAS provided ), the Lutherans, nor the Episcopalians!
And I am STILL waiting for you to tell me IF Judaism is a "cult" or not.
Also, I want to know how you know that you are three years older than a poster who has NOT posted any age. How OLD are YOU? :-)
You said -- "I would prefer proofs to your "guarantee"."
Are you really serious? Do you not really "know" that already? I'm surprised. My only conclusion to that is that you are totally unfamiliar with Christian churches, in general,, and *any* one particular Christian church -- specifically.
I guess I come from an area where people already know these things, so it surprises me.
I'm sorry, that sort of thing simply baffles me, how someone could not know that.
If you really do want to know and understand this information, I'll be glad to gather up some reading material for you and allow you to continue doing some research into this area, but only if you really want to.
I've been long past using some of those books (way back in the 70s) and I don't even have a lot of them anymore. But, I can look some of it up and can refer you to doctrinal positions of several of main denominations (no small off-shoots or wacko churches here..., mind you...).
Regards,
Star Traveler
Sorry, I don't know.
You said -- "Nor, for that matter, Hinduism and Buddhism either."
Didn't you catch the part where I said it was considered a non-Christian cult and that "cult" was in Christian terminology and theology? I thought I made that clear. It's a *Christian designation*. It comes from the fact that "Christianity" has *core essential belief* -- for which one cannot boil them down to any lower common denominator.
Now, Hinduism and Buddhism neither claim to be Christian. So, they do not try to make any pretense at that. Even so, in Christian terminology and Christian theology -- they would be cults.
This is a specific definition having to do with "core Christianity" which would be agreeable across the board with the historic and traditional Christian churches and as affirmed by the Bible, as the only authoritative source for these core essentials.
Now, as far as Methodists are concerned, I'll have to look into what they consider their core beliefs, and/or their statement of faith. I'll find out that for you, if you wish.
AND, as you've already seen -- here -- on this thread, there have been several people who have already affirmed that, yes, Mormonism is a non-Christian cult.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You asked -- "Are you now telling me that Methodism is a cult?"
I don't recall saying that. But, you can easily find out for yourself. Find that list of core Christian essentials, beyond which you cannot boil it down further to any lower common denominator (as is usually listed in all "cult books" before they do their "analysis") and see.
I sort of doubt it, but I would want to make sure by checking the facts, first. You could do the same as I could, in the matter. This is not information that is limited to me, but is freely available to all who want to look it up. Please..., feel free to do so.
Regards,
Star Traveler
The word "CULT" is NOT a "Christian" word.
But, in the way that YOU are using it and claiming that that is HOW it must be used, then Jesus Christ not only was a member of a cult, but so was his mother, all of his maternal ancestors, and all of his disciples.
You said -- "If you want to say that *you* don't accept anything as being *Christian* that deviates from certain, specific standards that you hold as sacrosanct - I really have no problem with that. When you decide to use a derogatory term like *cult* and can't back it up - can't even back it up using a dictionary - I think it places you out of the mainstream. I do wonder how old you are? Sometimes in youth - always, never, black and white thinking - help one to deal with fear and anxiety about a world that they just can't make sense of."
Well, actually I wasn't saying that these were beliefs that I hold sacrosanct -- but rather -- these were beliefs that Christian theologians have derived from the Bible, as their authoritative source -- and that they've come up with those core essentials, beyond which they cannot be reduced to any lower common denominator.
And as to what "area" these people would be in -- in terms of "religious groups" -- they would be considered "Evangelicals" (a pretty broad term, but it mostly works). It's a term that came more into use about 50 years ago (I think), meaning that this group adhered to the basic and core Christian beliefs and faith. It was, more or less, a self-proclaimed name, by that group, it seems. It's still in use today, although some have called for a new name to more precisely define those who still do hold to the core and essential beliefs of the Christian faith.
If you wanted something to actually *refer to* -- just go to the Southern Baptist Convention web site and get their statement of faith. That should suffice for you to examine. And since this is the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, it should be representative of a *fairly large group* (meaning it's not some off-the-wall group and their "wacko" understanding of the Christian faith and its beliefs).
I'll go along with whatever they say on their statement of faith -- at each and every point. That should clarify things more for you, I hope.
Regards,
Star Traveler
P.S. -- And when I said -- "In Christian terms -- *anything* that departs from the core and standard beliefs (which are considered *essential*) is a *cult*." -- is pretty much as close to a good dictionary (and useful) definition as you're going to get. That's pretty darned accurate.
Are you not familiar with Christianity? Is that it?
You said -- "Is Judaism a "CULT"?"
Did you know that Jesus Christ was a Jew and practiced the Jewish religion of His day? I think that should give you a pretty good answer...
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "Do they formally list Mormonism as a *cult*?"
Do you really know Christianity? I see a lack there. I think you need to start at an *earlier point* than in a discussion about cults. You have to first start with what is Christianity. That seems to be the problem here...
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "I was NEVER taught, by any Methodist Minister or Bishop that Mormonism is a "cult"."
Maybe they wanted you to do your own homework, once you knew the basics of the Christian faith. And, of course, anyone that does know the basics of the faith, knows that the Mormon religion bears absolutely no resemblence to the Christian faith.
The biggest problem I see, with people realizing that the Mormon religion is a non-Christian cult (again, in Christian terminology and Christian theology) -- is that those who doubt it or are uncertain about it simply don't know the Christian faith and what the core beliefs are.
Once they know that, then it becomes easy to tell the difference. And there is a big difference there.
Regards,
Star Traveler
P.S. -- Now, mind you, no one has said that they could not make up any religion they want and practice whatever they want. That's not the issue. They are free to make up whatever religion they want. It's just that whatever they have made up -- isn't what the Bible has said, in the traditional and historic Christian faith and what is taught in the Christian churches. You can take the Southern Baptist Convention for *one* specific example, if you will.
You said -- "Does any of this really matter? No. We have the freedom to worship our toenail clippings if we choose. That's the American way!"
Well, I'll agree with that -- it is certainly the "American way" with the proliferation of all these offshoot religions I see. And yes, people are *really* free to make up whatever religion suits them, in this country. I do recognize that right they have. And Americans sure are *inventive* in that area, apparently.
But, when it comes to the Christian religion, that predates America and predates and any kind of Western civilization existing on this continent. It has a long and traditional background that was carried over to this land -- long before some of these "cults" came to be invented.
I'm just talking about *dstinguishing* one from the other.
And you also said -- "I don't believe all Christians believe Mormonism to be a cult. Not Christian is one thing...a cult another entirely."
Well, it's this "cult" word that has things "tied up in a knot" it seems. You can consider this word -- "cult" -- to be a technical term. It's a Christian religious terms that basically means that whatever religion you're talking about -- it's "non-Christian" (meaning it doesn't adhere to the basic and historic doctrines of the church).
It's not the same meaning as in a "Jim Jones cult". I think that's the kind of definition that you would get in the newspaper or in a general dictionary. But, the Christian religion has its own terms -- and this is one of them. Cult has that kind of specific meaning to the Christian religion. It's just a matter of understanding the definitions, that's all.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "You can just about ANYTHING on line. That does NOT mean that it is true, factual, nor correct."
Go to legitimate Christian sites that teach doctrine. There are Christian sites that gives lists of cults, and help define things for people. Go online to get books that are available that talk about the core essentials of the Christian faith and how they are *distinct* from the cults and also how specific cults depart from them.
Online searches are good in that regard, in order to find books that can either be checked out (at the library) or purchased (even onlline, if you wish).
There are a lot of Bible answer sites which have legitimate backing from ministries and churches. I can think of one (a ministry) which is also a radio program and you can call in and ask questions. It's called "the Bible Answer Man". There are lots of legitimate sources out there, because those sources put up web sites for themselves.
Hey..., did you notice that we're "online". Maybe a lot of what is said in this thread hasn't been true and factual either. That's for people to research and find out.
I've put out the information that the Mormon church is not a Christian church and is a non-Christian cult. People can research that and find out all the relevant information that they need about it.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "The claim is that *all* churches and *all* theologians think exactly the same thing - that Mormonism is a cult. Since the Methodists do not. The whole claim is disproven now."
It was, by definition (which I gave) "Christian churches" and not "non-Christian churches". But, that's naturally so.
Therefore, a self-proclaimed Buddhist, is not Christian by his own statement. He doesn't claim to be, either. And, you'll find that Christian churches call Buddhism a non-Christian religion. That's a "cult" by their definition.
Now, in regards to the Methodist not considering Mormonism to be a cult -- that's something that I said I would have to check into, in terms of their "statement of faith" and see what it says.
My understanding is that they would *not* consider the Mormon religion to be a Christian religion, but rather a *non-Christian religion*. And that's the question here. Do they consider the Mormons to be a Christian religion in agreement with their statement of faith (as far as what they consider to be the minimum conditions for being a Christian, in other words, the lowest common denominator, by which they would distinguish themselves from Buddhists versus Baptists). That is what has to be found out there, in terms of Methodists.
But, again, my understanding is that Methodists (in their teachings and doctrines) would consider Mormonism to be a non-Christian religion.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You provided the link -- http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa/wmd/eir/mormon.htm
And that pretty much affirms that the Presbyterians do not consider the Mormons to be in the same historic and traditional Christianity that Presbyterians believe. They say that, pretty much in those terms. And they also point out that Mormonism is a "new religion" -- thus not having the long background, back to Jesus Christ (as the Presbyterians apparently consider themselves part of.
Thanks for providing that link. That does make the Presbyterians separate and distinct from the Mormons on a religion basis, in terms of their understanding and beliefs of Christianity.
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