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To: Polybius
And what conflicts might those be?

Consider what is required for flying birds to evolve; actually any complex kind of creature presents the same dilemma, but flying birds are probably the easiest case to visualize.

You need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems which are radically different from anything found on non-flying creatures: flight feathers, the system for turning flight feathers so that they open on upstrokes, wings, beaks (since you won't have hands to feed yourself with after you develop wings, specialized light bone structures, specialized high capacity hearts and flow-through lungs, a specialized tail and specialized balance parameters...

All of these things would be anti-condusive to survival prior to the whole picture being in place; the chance of evolving any of these features via mutation and surviving for more than an hour or two would be an infinitessimal.

Moreover, in probability theory, to compute the combined probability of two or more things happening at the same time, you multiply the individual probabilities together. The odds of all the things needed to be a flying bird coming together by chance are thus some tenth or twelth order infinitessimal, which basically renders the entire idea impossible.

Moreover, assuming these things "evolve" separately and even assuming the first has evolved, by the time another ten thousand generations rolls around and the second evolves, the first, having been antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and/or become vestigial.

The mathematical case against evolution in general terms can be viewed here, and not a single word about religion is involved.

Has it ever occurred to you that Intelligent Design over millions of years by the Hand of God might be an answer?

No. I don't picture God using unworkable methods.

913 posted on 06/14/2006 5:30:11 AM PDT by tomzz
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To: tomzz
"All of these things would be anti-condusive to survival prior to the whole picture being in place..."

Nonsense. There are intermediaries that have one or more of these traits but not all that do/did fine.

"the chance of evolving any of these features via mutation and surviving for more than an hour or two would be an infinitessimal."

And I am sure you can provide the relevant calculations to back this up.

"Moreover, in probability theory, to compute the combined probability of two or more things happening at the same time, you multiply the individual probabilities together. The odds of all the things needed to be a flying bird coming together by chance are thus some tenth or twelth order infinitessimal, which basically renders the entire idea impossible."

Of course, if you knew anything about probability theory you would know just how silly that example was. There is absolutely no reason to expect or demand that every trait would come together at exactly the same time. That's the problem with creationists and probability calculations... the calculations may be figured correctly, but they have no relationship to any process in nature.

"the first, having been antifunctional all the while,"

There is no reason at all to assume this. None.

"No. I don't picture God using unworkable methods."

But *poofing* creatures out of thin air is workable? lol
915 posted on 06/14/2006 5:37:41 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman (Gas up your tanks!!)
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To: tomzz
Has it ever occurred to you that Intelligent Design over millions of years by the Hand of God might be an answer?

No. I don't picture God using unworkable methods.

Infants with "unworkable" bodies such as those with Potter syndrome (born without any kidneys and with barely functional lungs) are born every day in the World and die after a few hours. Being part of the birth of such an infant and witnessing its inevitable death within a matter of hours was one of my most difficult experiences in medical school.

It is not for us to put limits on what God can or cannot do or what God will or won't do. Such matters are for God, not us, to decide.

In any case, the matter still remains that, however you believe the birth and inevitable deaths of those doomed infants ties into God's methods and plan has absolutely nothing to do with the legitimacy of your political beliefs or anybody else's political beliefs.

923 posted on 06/14/2006 6:50:26 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: tomzz
Moreover, in probability theory, to compute the combined probability of two or more things happening at the same time, you multiply the individual probabilities together.

Incorrect. It's a common mistake though.

934 posted on 06/14/2006 12:01:01 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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